What’s Up with the charging speeds ?

Faults and Technical chat for the Volkswagen ID.3
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

So today I tested two chargers. One 50kW and a the other was a 150kW (ID3 should except a 100kW) charge

Both charged at a slow current (reduced charging current was not on). The 50kW charger took 60mins to go from 37% to 50% and the 150kW took 30mins from 50% to 75%. Both times the AC was off and the 50kW showed a speed on the display off 70mph and the 150kW showed a max of 180mph.

On a 100kW charger you should get from 0-100% in and hour so what’s up ?

ID3 Family (Pro) 58KWh UK model

Sindidziwa
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:06 pm

Post by Sindidziwa »

180 mph is equivalent to about 50 kW I think (at an exchange rate of 4 miles/kW so maybe the charger was throttled back? I charged at an infinity station (up to 350 kW) and only got the same rate as you because it was free rather than the 69p/kW. I couldn't find a way to charge faster and use up my free allowance!
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

Thanks for the replay Sindidziwa. I'll pay more attention to what the charger shows its outputting on the display next time. I wish VW would show the input kW instead of MPH speed which makes no sense.
hwhbev
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:48 pm

Post by hwhbev »

Jel wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:05 pm Both charged at a slow current (reduced charging current was not on). The 50kW charger took 60mins to go from 37% to 50% and the 150kW took 30mins from 50% to 75%. Both times the AC was off and the 50kW showed a speed on the display off 70mph and the 150kW showed a max of 180mph.
For the 50kW charger to go from 37% to 50% in one hour means it was charging at 7.5kW not 50kW. This is more akin to home charging speeds.

For the 150kW charger to go from 50% to 75% in half an hour means it was charging at 29kW not 150kW.

Above about 80% the car's battery management will start throttling the charging current to avoid over heating the battery so you can't assume it will go from 0% to 100% in 2.5 hours on a 150kW charger. It will go to 80% in two hours and than start slowing down.

This is all theory and, yes, I know the battery capacity is slightly more than the rated 58kWh. I haven't had my ID.3 long enough to do any rapid charging. Lockdown doesn't help. "I'm just testing my EV, officer" probably wouldn't be regarded as a reasonable excuse to leave home. ;)
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

This is an ID3 plugged into a 100kW charger - the State of Charge makes a huge difference:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pZWTBkTDwSFZqf1y8
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

hwhbev wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:53 pm
Jel wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:05 pm Both charged at a slow current (reduced charging current was not on). The 50kW charger took 60mins to go from 37% to 50% and the 150kW took 30mins from 50% to 75%. Both times the AC was off and the 50kW showed a speed on the display off 70mph and the 150kW showed a max of 180mph.
For the 50kW charger to go from 37% to 50% in one hour means it was charging at 7.5kW not 50kW. This is more akin to home charging speeds.

For the 150kW charger to go from 50% to 75% in half an hour means it was charging at 29kW not 150kW.

Above about 80% the car's battery management will start throttling the charging current to avoid over heating the battery so you can't assume it will go from 0% to 100% in 2.5 hours on a 150kW charger. It will go to 80% in two hours and than start slowing down.

This is all theory and, yes, I know the battery capacity is slightly more than the rated 58kWh. I haven't had my ID.3 long enough to do any rapid charging. Lockdown doesn't help. "I'm just testing my EV, officer" probably wouldn't be regarded as a reasonable excuse to leave home. ;)

I wonder if some ID3s have been throttled back in terms of charging. At least until all the issues are sorted out. I will test taking my ID3 down to 20% and the rapid charge it to see what the charge rate is.
NorwichComputersAndy
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:42 pm

Post by NorwichComputersAndy »

I went to a “super charger” (50KW) the other day. It was a pod point and really morbid curiosity of charge speeds and got 30.5KWH in 39 minutes. Was set to charge to 80% so around 10% to 80%.

Kind of inline with the 0-80% times VW state in a 100KW charger ✅

538BB31D-03A0-47D7-867A-79552457191A.png

Coopear
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:59 pm

Post by Coopear »

Ok, I’m writing this while I sit plugged into an ionity rapid charger (capable of upto 350kW), charging at around 60kW. I thought I’d phone them up and ask why it wasn’t maxing out at 100kW...

Turns out there’s a few potential reasons. Optimum charging speed relies on several things:
- a battery <20% or >80% will be charged slower
- battery temperature. Ionity describe the optimum is to have been driving at highway speeds for 30 or 40 minutes prior to arriving at the charge point ensures battery is warm.
- external temperature, optimum is 15 to 25C

I missed all the above so maybe 60 isn’t too bad. I might try preconditioning the battery at home next time and see if it improves.
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

Coopear wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:31 pm Ok, I’m writing this while I sit plugged into an ionity rapid charger (capable of upto 350kW), charging at around 60kW. I thought I’d phone them up and ask why it wasn’t maxing out at 100kW...

Turns out there’s a few potential reasons. Optimum charging speed relies on several things:
- a battery <20% or >80% will be charged slower
- battery temperature. Ionity describe the optimum is to have been driving at highway speeds for 30 or 40 minutes prior to arriving at the charge point ensures battery is warm.
- external temperature, optimum is 15 to 25C

I missed all the above so maybe 60 isn’t too bad. I might try preconditioning the battery at home next time and see if it improves.
Let us know the results of your preconditioning test. When I charge mine its was below 15c and I had been driving in town slowly so the battery would not have been warm.
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

Think I found the answer ( https://phys.org/news/2018-08-ev-cold-t ... ivers.html )

I drive 99% of the time in London with an average speed of 10mph :? That makes me think that the HV battery never really warms up and when I go to a charging point the input current's reduced by the cars onboard systems. I'm also assuming that if you drive at higher speeds where the HV battery is warmer then the charge current would be closer to the maximum output of the charging point
Coopear
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:59 pm

Post by Coopear »

Update on charge after battery prep (not positive!)
Advice from Ionity was
1- driving for 30-40 minutes at highway speeds prior to charge to ensure battery is warm
2- not having the battery less than 20% prior to charge
3- nice warm day

Nothing to be done about the warm day but was about the same as Thursday. Today I’d driven for around 40 minutes on the A1, and battery was at 50%. Result was half the rate when I’d done no prep :-/ 30kW today instead of the 60 I got Thursday. So the mystery remains.
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

Coopear wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:37 pm Update on charge after battery prep (not positive!)
Advice from Ionity was
1- driving for 30-40 minutes at highway speeds prior to charge to ensure battery is warm
2- not having the battery less than 20% prior to charge
3- nice warm day

Nothing to be done about the warm day but was about the same as Thursday. Today I’d driven for around 40 minutes on the A1, and battery was at 50%. Result was half the rate when I’d done no prep :-/ 30kW today instead of the 60 I got Thursday. So the mystery remains.
Well so much for my theory then :? I'm planning on running another charge test this week.

I'm currently running a range test which is not looking great. I've done only 57 miles of slow city driving and already down to 53%. :shock: . I have had the AC on and pre heated the car a few times so that will have something to do with it but its been pretty cold so...
NorwichComputersAndy
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:42 pm

Post by NorwichComputersAndy »

I think the cold certainly is making a difference on range. It will impact the batteries performance however add lights and heating and it will make a huge difference.

When I purchased my ID one of the factors was we had to be able to get from Norwich to Kent on a charge - which in the summer would be fine however I think we may have to make a quick stop at a super charger - However we usually stop for coffee / loo break for the daughter so it won’t impact too much.

I will still be happy paying a couple of pounds a charge from home for the daily slog round Norwich - I am quite lucky that quite a few of my clients either have free electric hookups or are located near free ones in the city.

From the YouTube vids of range test when the temps were 15-20 degrees most exceeded the advertised range though - fingers crossed we will eventually get the same 👍

(Bloody weather! 🤣🇬🇧)
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

This video explains the charging speeds of the ID3 (and most EVs) well. Once the HV battery is charged over 50% the charing speeds will drop quite a bit which seems normal for most EVs. Anything below 50% charge amount and you should get the maximum charge rate from the charging point.

( )
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

So charged the car again this morning starting at 25% charge on a 150kW charging point so it should be outputting a 100kW charge to the ID3 but the charging point display showed that it was only pushing out 50kW to the car and I was getting 25% charge in 15mins which equals around 50kW.

I have a "Pro" version of the ID3 which is listed at excepting a 100kW fast charging speed max so if I'm not getting what I paid for VW are going to hear about it.
HeidiFlowerpt Driver
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:30 pm

Post by HeidiFlowerpt Driver »

As I understand it, there are a number of factors that influence charging speed. One is how many other vehicles are charging at the same location. Some locations have load sharing which reduces the power as necessary to avoid overloading the supply. Another is the ambient temperature. Another is the EV battery protection circuitry. Check out this: https://ev-database.uk/img/fastcharge/1 ... eCurve.png from the ID.3 page at EV-Database UK. On a 50kW charger the ID.3 will take its full output up to about 80%, after which the current delivery drops off progressively to protect the battery. On a 150kW charger the full 100kW that the ID.3 can accept will only be delivered up to about 30%, after which the current drops progressively. At about 70% the delivery is down to about 50kW.

It turns out that Lithium Ion batteries are worn out not so much by using them as by charging them to 100% at high speed. That's why VW recommend charging to 80% and it's why charging beyond that slows down. The same principle applies to mobile phones. If you usually charge your phone to 80% - and there are apps that help you do this - your phone's battery will last longer. Mine is over three years old and the battery has 91% of its original capacity.
ID.3 1st Edition Manganese Grey - called Heidi Flowerpot
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

HeidiFlowerpot wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:04 pm As I understand it, there are a number of factors that influence charging speed. One is how many other vehicles are charging at the same location. Some locations have load sharing which reduces the power as necessary to avoid overloading the supply. Another is the ambient temperature. Another is the EV battery protection circuitry. Check out this: https://ev-database.uk/img/fastcharge/1 ... eCurve.png from the ID.3 page at EV-Database UK. On a 50kW charger the ID.3 will take its full output up to about 80%, after which the current delivery drops off progressively to protect the battery. On a 150kW charger the full 100kW that the ID.3 can accept will only be delivered up to about 30%, after which the current drops progressively. At about 70% the delivery is down to about 50kW.

It turns out that Lithium Ion batteries are worn out not so much by using them as by charging them to 100% at high speed. That's why VW recommend charging to 80% and it's why charging beyond that slows down. The same principle applies to mobile phones. If you usually charge your phone to 80% - and there are apps that help you do this - your phone's battery will last longer. Mine is over three years old and the battery has 91% of its original capacity.
Hi HeidiFlowerpot,

Thanks for your replay. All good points you have made and to answer a few of them.

- The was only one charing point so no other cars where charging
- I started charging at 24% but the charging rate was never above 50kW
- I have only ever charged to 100% once to test the range and all other times to 80%
- I have dealt with lithium batteries for around 10 years now and have a good understanding of what they like and don't like.

Which comes down to the ambient temperature and the temperature of the batteries themselves. My next test will be to drive on a motorway to try to warm the batteries and see what the charge rate is then.
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

I'm told that driving for 30 minutes before you start helps, and starting the charge below 20% (the lower the better)
RDR
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:28 pm

Post by RDR »

Having had BMW I3's since their launch I gave up years ago trying to scientifically work out the parameters required to achieve a BEVs max charging rate it gave me a headache. I became obsessed and slightly irritated by it as it became clear Environment, vehicle status, charger status and load balancing all impact the charge rate so I gave up and just went with it. On occasion I would catch it charging at max rate but 95% of the time it was less. Haven't tried our ID3 on a rapid yet but I expect it will be as similar experience.

On range I'm totally ignoring the ID3's as with my previous BEVS the GOM (Guess Ometer) was never accurate for the first 1000k of driving or after a reset it needed to learn the battery characteristics and the driving style/pattern I expect the ID3 will be similar.
Jel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Post by Jel »

RDR wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:53 pm Having had BMW I3's since their launch I gave up years ago trying to scientifically work out the parameters required to achieve a BEVs max charging rate it gave me a headache. I became obsessed and slightly irritated by it as it became clear Environment, vehicle status, charger status and load balancing all impact the charge rate so I gave up and just went with it. On occasion I would catch it charging at max rate but 95% of the time it was less. Haven't tried our ID3 on a rapid yet but I expect it will be as similar experience.

On range I'm totally ignoring the ID3's as with my previous BEVS the GOM (Guess Ometer) was never accurate for the first 1000k of driving or after a reset it needed to learn the battery characteristics and the driving style/pattern I expect the ID3 will be similar.
Okay good to know from someone else's EV experience. Does anyone have any experience with Tesla's regarding maximum charging rate constancy ?
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