Heat Pump and Range

Faults and Technical chat for the Volkswagen ID.3
simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

Happy Christmas, hope you are all doing well.

My ID.3 has a heat pump installed which according to Volkswagen increases the range by up to 1/3rd in winter.

Last night we drove a 187 mile journey, charged the car up to 100%, car range initially said to be 236, on starting to drive this almost immediately dropped to 181 miles.

In the end 100% battery only got us 150 miles with 10 miles left so total range only 160 miles - 2 degrees C outside empty road, almost entire way on ACC either in D or B, dark so headlights on, cabin temperature 18.0C, navigation on.

So without the heat pump the car would have only achieved 120 miles as the heat pump increases the range by 1/3rd.

Along way from the claimed range of 260 miles and even below the 180-200 which other EVs with similar battery sizes seem to achieve.

Am I doing something wrong? Or is this the soft of range others are getting?

Doing the journey back this evening? Currently, charging on the 3 pin E-Golf charger loaned by the dealer (says 25 hours to get to 100%), so will get another idea of what range can be achieved.
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire

Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

WLTP is not a “claimed range”, it’s a global standard for all vehicles with the tests carried out in very specific conditions.

I doubt you would get 1/3 more range from just having a heat pump, not sure which VW source you used, from what I’ve read it may be 10-20%

I certainly get more than 120 miles without a heat pump doing lots of stop/start driving with heaters on as desired.
simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

The Volkswagen site https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/r ... /heat-pump does say up to 30% extra.

In terms of range I am just feeling disappointed all my conversations with Volkswagen have talked about 260 miles range. I realised in winter I wouldn’t get 260, but thought 75% around 190-200 with the heat pump would be reasonable. Hence my disappointment at only getting 60% with the heat pump.

I would be very very happy with the ID.3 if I hadn’t bought it on the basis of all things VW/dealer led me to believe before purchase.

Am I just being greedy?
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

To be fair to the dealers they could only give 260 miles as a specific figure as WLTP is the official measurement.

This video is also helpful:

Not sure what would mean you only get 120 miles though.
hungerdunger
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:28 pm
Location: Carmarthen, West Wales

Post by hungerdunger »

This is probably a stupid question, but as the battery is a modular design, would it be possible to upgrade the two lower variants of the ID.3 with extra cells if the owner felt that their current range was too small for their needs?

I'm feeling a bit guilty at the moment, because my wife has to undertake a return journey of 180 miles each way every three weeks (first journey next week) and I assured her that with the stated range of 260 miles, she would be able to do it without recharging (even allowing for heating, wipers etc). It now seems that this is going to be very marginal. I doubt whether we'd want to upgrade but it would be a nice option to have.
ID.3 1st Edition - Manganese Grey - purchased 15/12/20.
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

I believe the battery unit is sealed and cannot be upgraded in the way you are thinking. Might be that the Tour spec is in your future...
simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

scott28tt wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:09 pm To be fair to the dealers they could only give 260 miles as a specific figure as WLTP is the official measurement.

This video is also helpful: .............

Not sure what would mean you only get 120 miles though.
Thanks for the video it was helpful, it does refer to considerably shorter mileages than WLTP figures, so if the video does why can't the dealers?

The video gives a minimum of 230km (142miles) for the 45kWh battery, 300km (186miles) for the 58kWh and 390km (241miles) for the 77kWh.

So with my 58kWh battery it doesn't seem unreasonable to have expected to be almost able to do a 187mile journey, hence my disappointment at only being able to do 150miles.

My quoting 120miles was based on my being able to do 160miles with a heat pump and the heat pump increasing the range from the standard specification by 1/3rd. As you point out my 1/3rd is bigger than the up to 30% Volkswagen state, but even if I only got 10 - 20% benefit that means a standard specification ID.3 without the heat pump is only able to achieve at maximum 140miles, well below the 186miles realistic figure quoted by Volkswagen in the video. I would be very interested to know what range people are practically getting from the ID.3.

I thought I had read around the subject so I had expected to loose 25% from the range (195miles) close to the figure quoted by Volkswagen (186miles), but not to loose 38% (160miles with heat pump) - 46% (140miles without heat pump) - this means the ID.3 is as bad as the e-Golf - https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/car ... aimed.html.

So even in a 77kWh ID.3 the practical range at this time of year would only be (539km*.62miles/km*62%) 204miles with heat pump or 177miles without heat pump.

I feel that Volkswagen are not doing electric vehicles any favour by over promising in such an extreme way.
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
Coopear
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:59 pm

Post by Coopear »

Rather than expecting the heat pump to increase your range is it more useful to view that the heat pump reduces the impact of heating the car and protecting the range. By extension, a non heated, non pump equipped EV will out perform one with a heat pump.

In order to achieve 30% improvement I assume you’d need to be comparing two EVs in ultra cold conditions with the heating on maximum?

I am finding range wildly impacted by temperature and driving style. I can make the same journey and achieve efficiency ranging from <2 miles per kWh up to nearly 4 miles per kWh.
Last edited by Coopear on Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

@Coopear thanks, protecting is a good way to think about it, somewhat glass half full rather than half empty.

The variation in miles per kWh is interesting, seems more extreme than other electric vehicles.

Before having the car I had thought that being able to set the car's internal temperature using the app was an unnecessary luxury, now I realise pre-heating the car while charging could save you kWhs of battery and control by app no longer a luxury but a prudent necessity. I guess a newbie mistake.
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

It would appear that my estimate of 120 miles range without a heat pump is not unreasonable, as a 3 hour drive in Germany at slightly lower temperature driving at 80mph rather than 70mph only got 200 km:
- 93% gave 190 km
So I got an extra 30 miles as I had the heat pump :-).

I appreciate that the range will decrease in winter due to using heating, what I don't understand is why the ID.3 appears to get only 50% range whereas other electric cars appears to get nearer to 75%.

Is the ID.3 very poorly insulated compared to other electric cars?
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
roadhawk
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:37 pm

Post by roadhawk »

I do not have a heat pump, but on my last big run of 370 miles up and down the M40/M1, with temperatures 0C-6C on December 11, got 3.3miles/kwh or a range of 191miles. This was about 10% less than for the same journey in September (university run Oxford <-> York). I had the ACC set to 72mph so have not tried it at 80mph.
VW ID.3 1st Edition, Glacier White, Software version: 0363 aka 3.0 OTA
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id73
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:28 pm

Post by id73 »

Makes you wonder if the heat pump option is really worth £1,250 extra cost??
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

If you really want or need that extra 20 miles (as an example) of range without stopping to charge, it might be worth the cost to you. Otherwise it won’t be.
simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

roadhawk wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:46 pm I do not have a heat pump, but on my last big run of 370 miles up and down the M40/M1, with temperatures 0C-6C on December 11, got 3.3miles/kwh or a range of 191miles. This was about 10% less than for the same journey in September (university run Oxford <-> York). I had the ACC set to 72mph so have not tried it at 80mph.
Great range, I am interested to understand what you were doing right that Chris (Battery Life) was doing wrong - at 55mph he achieved 180miles with 54kWh (193 for 58kWh), but at 77mph he only got 131miles, I get similar figures to Chris when travelling a mixture of motorways and dual carriageways in Eco setting ACC to 70mph hence my interest.
  • Are you pre-heating the car?
  • Have you got the AC turned off?
  • Are you in a very thick coat?
  • What software version is your car on
  • Special tyres (winter vs summer)/wheels?
  • Daytime/Nighttime?
  • .......
At a lower temperature all cars are going to use more energy due to cold air being much thicker and denser than warm air, thus increasing the aerodynamic drag on your car; tyre pressures decreasing slightly in very cold temperatures, increasing the car’s rolling resistance; etc..
So a drop of 10% is very good, a lot of EVs appear to achieve at least 75% of the WLTP range, hence my disappointment that my ID.3 (or my driving) only achieves 60% of the range, whereas you are getting 74% :-).
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
sb96
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:16 am

Post by sb96 »

[quote=id73 post_id=2127 time=1610754442 user_id=349]
Makes you wonder if the heat pump option is really worth £1,250 extra cost??
[/quote]

As of now, it seems like a heat pump is not worth the extra cost. But maybe the effectiveness will be improved in future updates?

In Nextmoves video he was testing both an ID3 with a heat pump and one without.


As you can see in the graph, the ID3 without a heat pump sadly outperformed an ID3 with a heat pump...

Screenshot 2021-01-05 at 17.08.48.png

HeidiFlowerpt Driver
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:30 pm

Post by HeidiFlowerpt Driver »

I think there are many factors that reduce the range we can expect in cold weather. @simonrg mentions denser air resulting in more drag, and reduced tyre pressure as two of them. Driving in winter often entails headlights, windscreen wipers, and cabin heating, all of which drain the battery.
However I believe possibly the largest effect of cold temperature on range is the cold battery.

It's a well-known fact that Lithium ion batteries (and most other battery types) have reduced capacity at low temperatures. Ask any photographer who works outdoors in winter, they keep a battery in an inside pocket to swap with the one in the camera at regular intervals so they can keep working.

I'm no expert but I believe the voltage across the battery drops as temperature drops. So in order to push the car along at the same rate, the car has to draw more current from the battery, eating up its range.

If the temperature drops too low, damage to the battery can result, which is one reason why cars like the ID.3 have heating and cooling systems for the traction battery. These protect the battery from harm, but of course running a heater to warm the battery further drains the battery!

It's amazing that we get as much winter range as we do! I suspect that the Battery Management Unit does some pretty sophisticated stuff to optimize the range while protecting the battery. And if Tesla is anything to go by, future tweaks to the software might improve the range we get still further.
ID.3 1st Edition Manganese Grey - called Heidi Flowerpot
pdk42
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:57 pm

Post by pdk42 »

My 2c worth... I splashed out on the heat pump on ours in the hope that it would deliver at least close to the 20-30% improvement in efficiency that VW promised. I don't have another ID.3 without a heat pump to compare it with, but we're a two-car household with a Tesla Model 3 LR AWD (no heat pump) as the other car. I'm finding that the ID.3 is no better (and on short journeys actually worse) than the Tesla in consumption. Given that the Tesla is a dual motor setup and a heavier car, I'm a bit surprised by this. I think the short journey thing is down to battery warming, but trying to factor that out, I'm still a little underwhelmed by the ID.3's consumption in the winter and not seeing much benefit from the heap pump.

One point worth making about the heat pump though is this... if you run the climate settings in winter with both heating and "a/c" on (to demist), then you will be getting no benefit from having a heat pump. That's because the heat pump replaces the standard air con. Depending on how it's configured, it'll act at any one time either in heat or chill mode. To demist, it will be operating in chill mode so if you want to heat the car too, then the heat will be coming from the resistive heater, not the heat pump. In other words, it'll be exactly the same arrangement as a car without the heat pump. If you look at the Nextmove test, you'll see this screen below and as you'll see, that's exactly how he has it configured. In other words, the test is invalid.

HeatPump.png

simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

Thanks, I am starting to understand why we may be seeing suchs variation in range and my test was certainly at the challenging end - first drive in car, app not working so no pre-heat, car sat outside so battery cold at start, ..... Next time I will pre-heat and by next winter I need to have cleared the garage so the whole car would stay warmer plus hopefully software will pre-heat battery while plugged into wall not from battery.
HeidiFlowerpot wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:26 pm ....
However I believe possibly the largest effect of cold temperature on range is the cold battery.
....
It's amazing that we get as much winter range as we do! I suspect that the Battery Management Unit does some pretty sophisticated stuff to optimize the range while protecting the battery. And if Tesla is anything to go by, future tweaks to the software might improve the range we get still further.
I think once again we are not getting the full potential from the car and the heat pump due to the software, so I am hopefully that my heat pump will deliver more benefit in future, and am reassured by pdk42's logical analysis below:
pdk42 wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:55 pm .....
One point worth making about the heat pump though is this... if you run the climate settings in winter with both heating and "a/c" on (to demist), then you will be getting no benefit from having a heat pump. That's because the heat pump replaces the standard air con. Depending on how it's configured, it'll act at any one time either in heat or chill mode. To demist, it will be operating in chill mode so if you want to heat the car too, then the heat will be coming from the resistive heater, not the heat pump. In other words, it'll be exactly the same arrangement as a car without the heat pump. If you look at the Nextmove test, you'll see this screen below and as you'll see, that's exactly how he has it configured. In other words, the test is invalid.
.....
The car should really tell you that such a setting is has consequences for energy consumption.
It is a shame that VW don't appear to be commenting on such things where people are mis-using / mis-understanding the technology, however I guess coming from VW it would sound a bit like it will all be fixed by the mythical software some time in the future.
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
roadhawk
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:37 pm

Post by roadhawk »

simonrg wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:15 am
roadhawk wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:46 pm I do not have a heat pump, but on my last big run of 370 miles up and down the M40/M1, with temperatures 0C-6C on December 11, got 3.3miles/kwh or a range of 191miles. This was about 10% less than for the same journey in September (university run Oxford <-> York). I had the ACC set to 72mph so have not tried it at 80mph.
Great range, I am interested to understand what you were doing right that Chris (Battery Life) was doing wrong - at 55mph he achieved 180miles with 54kWh (193 for 58kWh), but at 77mph he only got 131miles, I get similar figures to Chris when travelling a mixture of motorways and dual carriageways in Eco setting ACC to 70mph hence my interest.
{snip}
So a drop of 10% is very good, a lot of EVs appear to achieve at least 75% of the WLTP range, hence my disappointment that my ID.3 (or my driving) only achieves 60% of the range, whereas you are getting 74% :-).
I think Chris (battery life) has switched to winter tyres now.
I found that switching A/C off and leaving heating on seems the best efficiency. If its all off the screen would mist up. I have the standard continental tyres with andoya wheels. I had the temperature set to 18C. I drive in eco mode. I use ACC. I have the classic 0564 software release :-). This was a daytime run, 9am heading north , 2pm return south. I usually put the steering wheel heater and seat heating on low. I do not think it was raining. I drive in D mode.
I did a shorter run this week, 87 miles at 18.2kwh per 100km, that was a mix of A roads, urban driving, and return via motorway and dual carriageway, so that was about 3.4miles/kwh. It was very wet but milder this week (10C).
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simonrg
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Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

roadhawk wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:06 pm
simonrg wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:15 am
roadhawk wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:46 pm I do not have a heat pump, but on my last big run of 370 miles up and down the M40/M1, with temperatures 0C-6C on December 11, got 3.3miles/kwh or a range of 191miles. This was about 10% less than for the same journey in September (university run Oxford <-> York). I had the ACC set to 72mph so have not tried it at 80mph.
Great range, I am interested to understand what you were doing right that Chris (Battery Life) was doing wrong - at 55mph he achieved 180miles with 54kWh (193 for 58kWh), but at 77mph he only got 131miles, I get similar figures to Chris when travelling a mixture of motorways and dual carriageways in Eco setting ACC to 70mph hence my interest.
{snip}
So a drop of 10% is very good, a lot of EVs appear to achieve at least 75% of the WLTP range, hence my disappointment that my ID.3 (or my driving) only achieves 60% of the range, whereas you are getting 74% :-).
I think Chris (battery life) has switched to winter tyres now.
I found that switching A/C off and leaving heating on seems the best efficiency. If its all off the screen would mist up. I have the standard continental tyres with andoya wheels. I had the temperature set to 18C. I drive in eco mode. I use ACC. I have the classic 0564 software release :-). This was a daytime run, 9am heading north , 2pm return south. I usually put the steering wheel heater and seat heating on low. I do not think it was raining. I drive in D mode.
I did a shorter run this week, 87 miles at 18.2kwh per 100km, that was a mix of A roads, urban driving, and return via motorway and dual carriageway, so that was about 3.4miles/kwh. It was very wet but milder this week (10C).
Thanks for the details, winter tyres will obviously make a difference but hopefully not 25%.
My run the same as yours expect heat pump, 19.5C, 2 in the car, night time.
So no obvious things I am doing wrong, will take some more experimenting with the car once I get it back.
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
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