Heat Pump and Range

Faults and Technical chat for the Volkswagen ID.3
roadhawk
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:37 pm

Post by roadhawk »

I do not have a heat pump, but on my last big run of 370 miles up and down the M40/M1, with temperatures 0C-6C on December 11, got 3.3miles/kwh or a range of 191miles. This was about 10% less than for the same journey in September (university run Oxford <-> York). I had the ACC set to 72mph so have not tried it at 80mph.
VW ID.3 1st Edition, Glacier White, Software version: 0363 aka 3.0 OTA
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id73
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:28 pm

Post by id73 »

Makes you wonder if the heat pump option is really worth £1,250 extra cost??
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

If you really want or need that extra 20 miles (as an example) of range without stopping to charge, it might be worth the cost to you. Otherwise it won’t be.
simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

roadhawk wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:46 pm I do not have a heat pump, but on my last big run of 370 miles up and down the M40/M1, with temperatures 0C-6C on December 11, got 3.3miles/kwh or a range of 191miles. This was about 10% less than for the same journey in September (university run Oxford <-> York). I had the ACC set to 72mph so have not tried it at 80mph.
Great range, I am interested to understand what you were doing right that Chris (Battery Life) was doing wrong - at 55mph he achieved 180miles with 54kWh (193 for 58kWh), but at 77mph he only got 131miles, I get similar figures to Chris when travelling a mixture of motorways and dual carriageways in Eco setting ACC to 70mph hence my interest.
  • Are you pre-heating the car?
  • Have you got the AC turned off?
  • Are you in a very thick coat?
  • What software version is your car on
  • Special tyres (winter vs summer)/wheels?
  • Daytime/Nighttime?
  • .......
At a lower temperature all cars are going to use more energy due to cold air being much thicker and denser than warm air, thus increasing the aerodynamic drag on your car; tyre pressures decreasing slightly in very cold temperatures, increasing the car’s rolling resistance; etc..
So a drop of 10% is very good, a lot of EVs appear to achieve at least 75% of the WLTP range, hence my disappointment that my ID.3 (or my driving) only achieves 60% of the range, whereas you are getting 74% :-).
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
sb96
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:16 am

Post by sb96 »

[quote=id73 post_id=2127 time=1610754442 user_id=349]
Makes you wonder if the heat pump option is really worth £1,250 extra cost??
[/quote]

As of now, it seems like a heat pump is not worth the extra cost. But maybe the effectiveness will be improved in future updates?

In Nextmoves video he was testing both an ID3 with a heat pump and one without.


As you can see in the graph, the ID3 without a heat pump sadly outperformed an ID3 with a heat pump...

Screenshot 2021-01-05 at 17.08.48.png

HeidiFlowerpt Driver
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:30 pm

Post by HeidiFlowerpt Driver »

I think there are many factors that reduce the range we can expect in cold weather. @simonrg mentions denser air resulting in more drag, and reduced tyre pressure as two of them. Driving in winter often entails headlights, windscreen wipers, and cabin heating, all of which drain the battery.
However I believe possibly the largest effect of cold temperature on range is the cold battery.

It's a well-known fact that Lithium ion batteries (and most other battery types) have reduced capacity at low temperatures. Ask any photographer who works outdoors in winter, they keep a battery in an inside pocket to swap with the one in the camera at regular intervals so they can keep working.

I'm no expert but I believe the voltage across the battery drops as temperature drops. So in order to push the car along at the same rate, the car has to draw more current from the battery, eating up its range.

If the temperature drops too low, damage to the battery can result, which is one reason why cars like the ID.3 have heating and cooling systems for the traction battery. These protect the battery from harm, but of course running a heater to warm the battery further drains the battery!

It's amazing that we get as much winter range as we do! I suspect that the Battery Management Unit does some pretty sophisticated stuff to optimize the range while protecting the battery. And if Tesla is anything to go by, future tweaks to the software might improve the range we get still further.
ID.3 1st Edition Manganese Grey - called Heidi Flowerpot
pdk42
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:57 pm

Post by pdk42 »

My 2c worth... I splashed out on the heat pump on ours in the hope that it would deliver at least close to the 20-30% improvement in efficiency that VW promised. I don't have another ID.3 without a heat pump to compare it with, but we're a two-car household with a Tesla Model 3 LR AWD (no heat pump) as the other car. I'm finding that the ID.3 is no better (and on short journeys actually worse) than the Tesla in consumption. Given that the Tesla is a dual motor setup and a heavier car, I'm a bit surprised by this. I think the short journey thing is down to battery warming, but trying to factor that out, I'm still a little underwhelmed by the ID.3's consumption in the winter and not seeing much benefit from the heap pump.

One point worth making about the heat pump though is this... if you run the climate settings in winter with both heating and "a/c" on (to demist), then you will be getting no benefit from having a heat pump. That's because the heat pump replaces the standard air con. Depending on how it's configured, it'll act at any one time either in heat or chill mode. To demist, it will be operating in chill mode so if you want to heat the car too, then the heat will be coming from the resistive heater, not the heat pump. In other words, it'll be exactly the same arrangement as a car without the heat pump. If you look at the Nextmove test, you'll see this screen below and as you'll see, that's exactly how he has it configured. In other words, the test is invalid.

HeatPump.png

simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

Thanks, I am starting to understand why we may be seeing suchs variation in range and my test was certainly at the challenging end - first drive in car, app not working so no pre-heat, car sat outside so battery cold at start, ..... Next time I will pre-heat and by next winter I need to have cleared the garage so the whole car would stay warmer plus hopefully software will pre-heat battery while plugged into wall not from battery.
HeidiFlowerpot wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:26 pm ....
However I believe possibly the largest effect of cold temperature on range is the cold battery.
....
It's amazing that we get as much winter range as we do! I suspect that the Battery Management Unit does some pretty sophisticated stuff to optimize the range while protecting the battery. And if Tesla is anything to go by, future tweaks to the software might improve the range we get still further.
I think once again we are not getting the full potential from the car and the heat pump due to the software, so I am hopefully that my heat pump will deliver more benefit in future, and am reassured by pdk42's logical analysis below:
pdk42 wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:55 pm .....
One point worth making about the heat pump though is this... if you run the climate settings in winter with both heating and "a/c" on (to demist), then you will be getting no benefit from having a heat pump. That's because the heat pump replaces the standard air con. Depending on how it's configured, it'll act at any one time either in heat or chill mode. To demist, it will be operating in chill mode so if you want to heat the car too, then the heat will be coming from the resistive heater, not the heat pump. In other words, it'll be exactly the same arrangement as a car without the heat pump. If you look at the Nextmove test, you'll see this screen below and as you'll see, that's exactly how he has it configured. In other words, the test is invalid.
.....
The car should really tell you that such a setting is has consequences for energy consumption.
It is a shame that VW don't appear to be commenting on such things where people are mis-using / mis-understanding the technology, however I guess coming from VW it would sound a bit like it will all be fixed by the mythical software some time in the future.
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
roadhawk
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:37 pm

Post by roadhawk »

simonrg wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:15 am
roadhawk wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:46 pm I do not have a heat pump, but on my last big run of 370 miles up and down the M40/M1, with temperatures 0C-6C on December 11, got 3.3miles/kwh or a range of 191miles. This was about 10% less than for the same journey in September (university run Oxford <-> York). I had the ACC set to 72mph so have not tried it at 80mph.
Great range, I am interested to understand what you were doing right that Chris (Battery Life) was doing wrong - at 55mph he achieved 180miles with 54kWh (193 for 58kWh), but at 77mph he only got 131miles, I get similar figures to Chris when travelling a mixture of motorways and dual carriageways in Eco setting ACC to 70mph hence my interest.
{snip}
So a drop of 10% is very good, a lot of EVs appear to achieve at least 75% of the WLTP range, hence my disappointment that my ID.3 (or my driving) only achieves 60% of the range, whereas you are getting 74% :-).
I think Chris (battery life) has switched to winter tyres now.
I found that switching A/C off and leaving heating on seems the best efficiency. If its all off the screen would mist up. I have the standard continental tyres with andoya wheels. I had the temperature set to 18C. I drive in eco mode. I use ACC. I have the classic 0564 software release :-). This was a daytime run, 9am heading north , 2pm return south. I usually put the steering wheel heater and seat heating on low. I do not think it was raining. I drive in D mode.
I did a shorter run this week, 87 miles at 18.2kwh per 100km, that was a mix of A roads, urban driving, and return via motorway and dual carriageway, so that was about 3.4miles/kwh. It was very wet but milder this week (10C).
VW ID.3 1st Edition, Glacier White, Software version: 0363 aka 3.0 OTA
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simonrg
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Post by simonrg »

roadhawk wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:06 pm
simonrg wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:15 am
roadhawk wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:46 pm I do not have a heat pump, but on my last big run of 370 miles up and down the M40/M1, with temperatures 0C-6C on December 11, got 3.3miles/kwh or a range of 191miles. This was about 10% less than for the same journey in September (university run Oxford <-> York). I had the ACC set to 72mph so have not tried it at 80mph.
Great range, I am interested to understand what you were doing right that Chris (Battery Life) was doing wrong - at 55mph he achieved 180miles with 54kWh (193 for 58kWh), but at 77mph he only got 131miles, I get similar figures to Chris when travelling a mixture of motorways and dual carriageways in Eco setting ACC to 70mph hence my interest.
{snip}
So a drop of 10% is very good, a lot of EVs appear to achieve at least 75% of the WLTP range, hence my disappointment that my ID.3 (or my driving) only achieves 60% of the range, whereas you are getting 74% :-).
I think Chris (battery life) has switched to winter tyres now.
I found that switching A/C off and leaving heating on seems the best efficiency. If its all off the screen would mist up. I have the standard continental tyres with andoya wheels. I had the temperature set to 18C. I drive in eco mode. I use ACC. I have the classic 0564 software release :-). This was a daytime run, 9am heading north , 2pm return south. I usually put the steering wheel heater and seat heating on low. I do not think it was raining. I drive in D mode.
I did a shorter run this week, 87 miles at 18.2kwh per 100km, that was a mix of A roads, urban driving, and return via motorway and dual carriageway, so that was about 3.4miles/kwh. It was very wet but milder this week (10C).
Thanks for the details, winter tyres will obviously make a difference but hopefully not 25%.
My run the same as yours expect heat pump, 19.5C, 2 in the car, night time.
So no obvious things I am doing wrong, will take some more experimenting with the car once I get it back.
ID.3 Business Pro Performance + Heat Pump - 0564 (23/12/20) - 0783 (28/1/21) - 0792 (7/5/21) - 0910 (24/10/21) - 3.2 (6/7/23) - Hardware H20 - North Yorkshire
dega
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:56 pm

Post by dega »

Hello,
is there an easy way to see if I have the heat pump?

Tbh it's just for paranoia, I know I should have one, and I just got the car...
However VW did forget to put inside the car the towbar, that should come with the bike rack prep that I've ordered (dealer is chasing that up). Anyways I am just wondering if they missed something else... ;)


Thanks
ID.3 Family Pro Performance
Glacier White, Sport Pack, 18inch East Derry, Heat pump, Bike Rack Prep

Ordered 5 Oct '21, Order #31505XXX
Collected 25/11/22

ID3 Build & Delivery Info Tracker : https://tinyurl.com/id3tracker
dega
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:56 pm

Post by dega »

Something very random: I found the workshop manual for the air conditioning:

https://vwts.ru/vw/id3/vw-id3-heating-a ... er-eng.pdf

and much more:
https://vwts.ru/vw_id3_e11.html

Enjoy!
ID.3 Family Pro Performance
Glacier White, Sport Pack, 18inch East Derry, Heat pump, Bike Rack Prep

Ordered 5 Oct '21, Order #31505XXX
Collected 25/11/22

ID3 Build & Delivery Info Tracker : https://tinyurl.com/id3tracker
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