Range reduction using in car air con

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Ivanfw
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Post by Ivanfw »

Hi All
We. have an id3 family pro-performance. great car but one drawback seems to be the effect on range when using the heating/air-con. I know that the apparent drop in range is not as bad as it first apears but we have just completed a 460 mile round trip from wirral to Somerset and back. 23rd-25th November 2921 in cold weather and the need for heating was a worry. I wonder why VW haven't addressed this issue and come. up with a fix. Or is the just a feature of all EV's?
Ivanwf

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Post by Deleted User 192 »

Best to pre-heat the cabin while charging, then rely more on the heated seats and wheel if you can while driving.
sausageroll
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Post by sausageroll »

Ivanfw wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:01 pm Hi All
We. have an id3 family pro-performance. great car but one drawback seems to be the effect on range when using the heating/air-con. I know that the apparent drop in range is not as bad as it first apears but we have just completed a 460 mile round trip from wirral to Somerset and back. 23rd-25th November 2921 in cold weather and the need for heating was a worry. I wonder why VW haven't addressed this issue and come. up with a fix. Or is the just a feature of all EV's?
Ivanwf
The only reason why heating is 'free' in ICE vehicles is because combustion is so inefficient there's lots of free heat on offer.

Not so in an EV. It's basically the same as running an electric heater independently of the motor - uses a fair bit of power, as electric heaters in any format do
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

As sausageroll says. No wasted heat from an EV so the only source to heat is the battery.
Like at home though, you can reduce the cabin temperature and dress a little warmer to maximise your range. It becomes a question of choice.
A cabin temperature of 24C will take a lot more out of the batteries than at 19C.
The pre heating as Scott says is vey effective especially on short journeys. The cabin temperature might take 15 minutes to decay.
On those short runs I preheat and dont use the heater at all for the drive so no impact on range at all.
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Warminster id
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Post by Warminster id »

scott28tt wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:13 pm Best to pre-heat the cabin while charging, then rely more on the heated seats and wheel if you can while driving.
It’s a great idea to preheat while charging but unless you use the charge from 80%-20% every day what do you do the rest of the time?
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

I did a 40 mile round trip with only a 15 min stop between the 2 parts of the journey and the second half was fairly slow due to traffic. Ambient temp of 3C and the economy crept up to 2.8 miles per kWh at the end from a first leg figure of 2.3 miles per kWh and I was only maintaining 17C in the cabin.

That would've been around 4 miles per kWh in the Summer with no heating. This wasn't really a short journey and yet heating requirements (battery and cabin) in the cold have robbed 1/3 of the range.

A 5 mile journey yesterday under same conditions would've likely been a little more than half summer figures.

That's the downside of EVs - when you're looking at heating the cabin air by 13-15C, that electric heater is working hard and pulling a lit of current, the battery heating mire so again.

On my trip yesterday, 40 miles, taking 80 mins and averaging 2.8 miles per kWh, it's used 14.3 kWh of elecrricity. Same journey in Summer at 4 miles per kWh uses 10 kWh. So heating is using 4.3 kWh, I doubt cabin heating is using more than 1kWh of that.

I suppose some people will be surprised how much energy battery heating uses we all know how much weaker a stone cold 12v battery in the Winter is, especially when it's on its way out.

For some battery types you get more energy out after warning it, despite the energy cost of warming it, rather than running it cold. Presumably it's a big help with battery longevity too.
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

Warminster id wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:30 am
scott28tt wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:13 pm Best to pre-heat the cabin while charging, then rely more on the heated seats and wheel if you can while driving.
It’s a great idea to preheat while charging but unless you use the charge from 80%-20% every day what do you do the rest of the time?

Not quite sure what you mean.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

scott28tt wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:42 pm
Warminster id wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:30 am
scott28tt wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:13 pm Best to pre-heat the cabin while charging, then rely more on the heated seats and wheel if you can while driving.
It’s a great idea to preheat while charging but unless you use the charge from 80%-20% every day what do you do the rest of the time?

Not quite sure what you mean.
I don't have a set routine in retirement. I leave the car plugged in so the disired soc is maintained.
I then turn the schedule off for that day on the app in the morning and if we decide to pop out I use the 30 minute AC start timer to pre condition the cabin knowing the charger will maintain the battery soc before we set off.
On return I reactive the schedule or let it top up a couple of percent . A 4 or 5 mile shop trip is just over 1kW. Even on the day tariff that's about 20p.
Either way I can manage what is best for me via the app without a need to go to the car.
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Post by Warminster id »

Pre heating when not charging reduces the range and you don’t need to charge every night unless you do big miles every day, most people only need to charge a couple of times a week
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Warminster id wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:08 am Pre heating when not charging reduces the range and you don’t need to charge every night unless you do big miles every day, most people only need to charge a couple of times a week
Did you read how I get around that?
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Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:12 am
Warminster id wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:08 am Pre heating when not charging reduces the range and you don’t need to charge every night unless you do big miles every day, most people only need to charge a couple of times a week
Did you read how I get around that?
Dave
I'm sure I read somewhere that it wasn't good for the battery health to be constantly adding small amounts of charge.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Scratch wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:16 am
Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:12 am
Warminster id wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:08 am Pre heating when not charging reduces the range and you don’t need to charge every night unless you do big miles every day, most people only need to charge a couple of times a week
Did you read how I get around that?
Dave
I'm sure I read somewhere that it wasn't good for the battery health to be constantly adding small amounts of charge.
I guess "constantly" needs more definition.
For for me the process is a few times a week.
I'm a low miler, just topped out 5,000 in 11 months. I would hope overall my battery condition benefits from the lower miles and 90% AC charging. Swings and roundabouts!
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:37 am
Scratch wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:16 am
Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:12 am

Did you read how I get around that?
Dave
I'm sure I read somewhere that it wasn't good for the battery health to be constantly adding small amounts of charge.
I guess "constantly" needs more definition.
For for me the process is a few times a week.
I'm a low miler, just topped out 5,000 in 11 months. I would hope overall my battery condition benefits from the lower miles and 90% AC charging. Swings and roundabouts!
I certainly understand why you charge the way you do. I went through a period where I thought it would be best to keep a full(ish) charge (80%), just in case I needed it. But that wore off. If I do find I need a full charge, then I will just have to wait till it reaches it. One of the quirks of EV ownership without a standby ICE car, I suppose.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Right Scratch. I was thinking the same but in the way I run was going to drop the charge to maybe 60 or 70 percent. I rarely drop to 50% from an 80% charge.
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Post by Warminster id »

Sorry I didn’t see your post before I replied to the one before.
I always thought that topping up was bad for the battery, I have done it occasionally when on a long run but usually stick to the 80-20 advice given by most manufacturers.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

A moment of clarity whilst freezing my nuts off on a 2C trail ride today.
Take it out of the spare range in the battery and dont dusturb the charging schedules.
It all comes good at 0030hrs when the cheap tarrif starts 👍 its still so easy to obsess about range.
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Post by Deleted User 314 »

FWIW we find we get a lot better range with aircon chilling than we do heating. Temps around 34 degrees.
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:05 pm A moment of clarity whilst freezing my nuts off on a 2C trail ride today.
Take it out of the spare range in the battery and dont dusturb the charging schedules.
It all comes good at 0030hrs when the cheap tarrif starts 👍 its still so easy to obsess about range.
Unfortunately, some of us can’t get the cheap overnight rates.
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Post by Daveion »

Sorry Scratch. I thought an overnight cheap tariff was UK wide?
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Anduain wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:48 pm FWIW we find we get a lot better range with aircon chilling than we do heating. Temps around 34 degrees.
That's as expected. If you're cooling then the ambient temp is going to be nice for the battery, with no battery heating required. Also, aircon is acting in reverse way to a heat pump, with mechanics bring employed rather than raw high resistance electricity. We already know heat pump warming the cabin is more efficient than straight up electric heating.

34 degrees? Presumably you're talking Fahrenheit? So that's about 1C, same as it was here (Newcastle) this morning when I did my 20 mile/ Ave 2.4 miles per kWh journey. Not a bother cost wise at 5p per kWh, but for the 2 ID3s, one or the other was on charge for an Ave 3 times a week, now its 5 times a week. Won't be doing any very long journeys.

Looking at recent trips with the temperature plunge, I'm losing a consistent 30% range vs Summer with aircon on 20+ mile journeys, and more like 40% on <5 miles. Given how quickly a 3kWh heater can heat my small works office with probably 60+ times the volume, I doubt the cabin heating is averaging more than 0.5kWh to maintain the cabin temp selected once there, with more like a 5 kWh per hour load for battery heating at around 0-2C.
Last edited by monkeyhanger on Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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