Range reduction using in car air con

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Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:12 am
Warminster id wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:08 am Pre heating when not charging reduces the range and you don’t need to charge every night unless you do big miles every day, most people only need to charge a couple of times a week
Did you read how I get around that?
Dave
I'm sure I read somewhere that it wasn't good for the battery health to be constantly adding small amounts of charge.

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Post by Daveion »

Scratch wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:16 am
Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:12 am
Warminster id wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:08 am Pre heating when not charging reduces the range and you don’t need to charge every night unless you do big miles every day, most people only need to charge a couple of times a week
Did you read how I get around that?
Dave
I'm sure I read somewhere that it wasn't good for the battery health to be constantly adding small amounts of charge.
I guess "constantly" needs more definition.
For for me the process is a few times a week.
I'm a low miler, just topped out 5,000 in 11 months. I would hope overall my battery condition benefits from the lower miles and 90% AC charging. Swings and roundabouts!
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:37 am
Scratch wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:16 am
Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:12 am

Did you read how I get around that?
Dave
I'm sure I read somewhere that it wasn't good for the battery health to be constantly adding small amounts of charge.
I guess "constantly" needs more definition.
For for me the process is a few times a week.
I'm a low miler, just topped out 5,000 in 11 months. I would hope overall my battery condition benefits from the lower miles and 90% AC charging. Swings and roundabouts!
I certainly understand why you charge the way you do. I went through a period where I thought it would be best to keep a full(ish) charge (80%), just in case I needed it. But that wore off. If I do find I need a full charge, then I will just have to wait till it reaches it. One of the quirks of EV ownership without a standby ICE car, I suppose.
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Post by Daveion »

Right Scratch. I was thinking the same but in the way I run was going to drop the charge to maybe 60 or 70 percent. I rarely drop to 50% from an 80% charge.
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Post by Warminster id »

Sorry I didn’t see your post before I replied to the one before.
I always thought that topping up was bad for the battery, I have done it occasionally when on a long run but usually stick to the 80-20 advice given by most manufacturers.
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Post by Daveion »

A moment of clarity whilst freezing my nuts off on a 2C trail ride today.
Take it out of the spare range in the battery and dont dusturb the charging schedules.
It all comes good at 0030hrs when the cheap tarrif starts 👍 its still so easy to obsess about range.
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Post by Deleted User 314 »

FWIW we find we get a lot better range with aircon chilling than we do heating. Temps around 34 degrees.
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:05 pm A moment of clarity whilst freezing my nuts off on a 2C trail ride today.
Take it out of the spare range in the battery and dont dusturb the charging schedules.
It all comes good at 0030hrs when the cheap tarrif starts 👍 its still so easy to obsess about range.
Unfortunately, some of us can’t get the cheap overnight rates.
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Post by Daveion »

Sorry Scratch. I thought an overnight cheap tariff was UK wide?
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Anduain wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:48 pm FWIW we find we get a lot better range with aircon chilling than we do heating. Temps around 34 degrees.
That's as expected. If you're cooling then the ambient temp is going to be nice for the battery, with no battery heating required. Also, aircon is acting in reverse way to a heat pump, with mechanics bring employed rather than raw high resistance electricity. We already know heat pump warming the cabin is more efficient than straight up electric heating.

34 degrees? Presumably you're talking Fahrenheit? So that's about 1C, same as it was here (Newcastle) this morning when I did my 20 mile/ Ave 2.4 miles per kWh journey. Not a bother cost wise at 5p per kWh, but for the 2 ID3s, one or the other was on charge for an Ave 3 times a week, now its 5 times a week. Won't be doing any very long journeys.

Looking at recent trips with the temperature plunge, I'm losing a consistent 30% range vs Summer with aircon on 20+ mile journeys, and more like 40% on <5 miles. Given how quickly a 3kWh heater can heat my small works office with probably 60+ times the volume, I doubt the cabin heating is averaging more than 0.5kWh to maintain the cabin temp selected once there, with more like a 5 kWh per hour load for battery heating at around 0-2C.
Last edited by monkeyhanger on Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:08 pm Sorry Scratch. I thought an overnight cheap tariff was UK wide?
If you can't get a SMETS2 smart meter then you can't get the cheap rate as the provider can't tell when you're pulling that electricity. Also, with recent energy hikes it's probably better to keep your 15p per kWh tariff for as long as your fixed term lasts than more to a 24p per kWh tariff that does 5p per kWh for 4 hours overnight.
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Post by Daveion »

Anduain wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:48 pm FWIW we find we get a lot better range with aircon chilling than we do heating. Temps around 34 degrees.
One reason is the delta T as in temperature difference.
When heating say from 5C to 22C the temperature difference is 17C.
Cooling from 34C to 22C is 12C.
The greater the difference the greater the energy need.
Depending on external temperatures the refrigeration cycle is also more efficient than a resistive heater. That's why heat pumps have a higher efficiency generally speaking.
I can hear the forum going what about when I set the AC to 16C or LOW. Reality is there is never enough capacity in the design to achieve those temperature differentials. What you actually benefit more greatly from is a huge reduction in relative humidity. That makes you feel much cooler as perspiration provides greater evaporative cooling in lower RH.
Last edited by Daveion on Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Daveion »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:18 pm
Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:08 pm Sorry Scratch. I thought an overnight cheap tariff was UK wide?
If you can't get a SMETS2 smart meter then you can't get the cheap rate as the provider can't tell when you're pulling that electricity. Also, with recent energy hikes it's probably better to keep your 15p per kWh tariff for as long as your fixed term lasts than more to a 24p per kWh tariff that does 5p per kWh for 4 hours overnight.
So SMETS2 are not available from all suppliers?
I cant think of a good reason why unless its signal coverage related maybe.
I take your point with the tariffs. I cant see the cheap tariff going unchanged.
I'm 18p day and 5p in the 4 hour 0030-0430 window currently and need to look when that will change.
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:08 pm Sorry Scratch. I thought an overnight cheap tariff was UK wide?
It may well be if you can have a SMETS2 meter fitted. We can’t.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:33 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:18 pm
Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:08 pm Sorry Scratch. I thought an overnight cheap tariff was UK wide?
If you can't get a SMETS2 smart meter then you can't get the cheap rate as the provider can't tell when you're pulling that electricity. Also, with recent energy hikes it's probably better to keep your 15p per kWh tariff for as long as your fixed term lasts than more to a 24p per kWh tariff that does 5p per kWh for 4 hours overnight.
So SMETS2 are not available from all suppliers?
I cant think of a good reason why unless its signal coverage related maybe.
I take your point with the tariffs. I cant see the cheap tariff going unchanged.
I'm 18p day and 5p in the 4 hour 0030-0430 window currently and need to look when that will change.
Signal issues will do it. It's not enough to have a SMETS2 meter, it needs to be fully working in terms of communicating with the supplier frequently.

Our gas meter is in the front garden and our electricity meter is in the back garden, on our garage wall (the back of the house and driveway/garage are accessed from the street behind ours). Both are SMETS2, but when the installer for the gas meter turned up, they decided that the 2 meters were too far apart and made the gas one dumb.
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Post by Deleted User 314 »

Daveion wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:23 pm
Anduain wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:48 pm FWIW we find we get a lot better range with aircon chilling than we do heating. Temps around 34 degrees.
One reason is the delta T as in temperature difference.
When heating say from 5C to 22C the temperature difference is 17C.
Cooling from 34C to 22C is 12C.
The greater the difference the greater the energy need.
Depending on external temperatures the refrigeration cycle is also more efficient than a resistive heater. That's why heat pumps have a higher efficiency generally speaking.
I can hear the forum going what about when I set the AC to 16C or LOW. Reality is there is never enough capacity in the design to achieve those temperature differentials. What you actually benefit more greatly from is a huge reduction in relative humidity. That makes you feel much cooler as perspiration provides greater evaporative cooling in lower RH.
Logical and informative. Thanks!
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Post by shire-dweller »

Daveion wrote:
monkeyhanger wrote: If you can't get a SMETS2 smart meter then you can't get the cheap rate [...]
So SMETS2 are not available from all suppliers? I cant think of a good reason why unless its signal coverage related maybe. [...]
 
Oh, don't get me started! A chunk of UK households, like mine, are stuck with SMETS 1 "really dumb smart meters" that are not compatible with EV tariffs (cheap overnight rates). Many (most?) suppliers won't replace SMETS 1 meters with SMETS 2 meters because there is a chance that, at some point in the future, the SMETS 1 meter may be able to get a software upgrade to allow it join the national DCC network of SMETS 2 meters.

I am with Bulb (yes, the one on special administration, effectively nationalised at a cost of £1.7bn to taxpayers, too big to fail like banks during the financial crisis, with likely spillovers to all UK electricity bill payers in due course). Bulb has an EV tariff (cheap overnight rates) that isn't too bad in price, if you have a SMETS 2 meter. But their customer support made it clear, beyond ambiguity, that SMETS 1 meters will not be able to take advantage of their EV tariff even when and if (and that's a big IF) the SMETS 1 meter gets a software upgrade to automatically submit meter readings. (Don't ask why, there is no logic or explanation.) And this is despite their EV tariff web page stating the opposite, that SMETS 1 meters will be compatible with the EV tariff. Their customer services made it clear that that web page provides incorrect information and that they are in process of amending it -- for months. (How hard is it to update their own web page to remove false statements?) And Bulb also made it clear to me that they will not replace my SMETS 1 meter with a SMETS 2 meter because "you already have a smart meter". Perfectly Kafkaesque.

I queried a few other suppliers a few weeks ago and found a mixed picture. Some suppliers like Bulb and EDF are not prepared to replace a SMETS 1 meter with a SMETS 2 meter in order for the customer to take advantage of an EV tariff (cheap overnight rates), while other suppliers like Shell Energy and Octopus state that they would be willing to do it.

"Then switch to Octopus", I hear you say. Well, thanks for the salt on my wound! :D Octopus and many (most?) other energy suppliers are not currently taking on new customers (already for a while) other than on fixed-price tariffs that are more expensive than the Ofgem price cap. Try getting a new quote on their website, you'll get this message:
You need to know this 👇
Right now, energy prices are at record highs, and most homes will be better off staying with their current energy supplier for the winter.
If your fixed term is coming to an end, don't choose a new tariff or switch supplier.
Instead, let your supplier automatically move you to their default tariff, so your prices are protected by the Government's Energy Price Cap.
I've read and understood the above, and I would still like a quote to switch to Octopus
Clicking the link at the bottom leads to another warning:
With global energy prices at record highs, you're unlikely to be better off by switching at this time.
If you think that's incorrect and would like a personalised quote, please call and speak to one of our experts on 08081693274 with your current energy prices to hand. Our lines are open 9am - 5pm Monday to Thursday and 9am - 4pm on Friday.
I phoned them three weeks ago and they pretty much refused to give me a quote on the phone too, by simply insisting that I would be better off staying with my current supplier (interestingly not bothering to ask me about my current supplier or how much I currently pay), even taking into account cheaper overnight rates (interestingly not asking me how much energy I use during the day and during the night).

You guys with your SMETS 2 meters and your 5p overnight rates with Octopus are in heavenly bubble, but for the rest of us out here it is carnage! :lol: The only consolation for me is that, besides a SMETS 2 meter, the other thing I do not have is an electric car, because VW does not have microchips, etc.
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Post by Scratch »

shire-dweller wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 am
Daveion wrote:
monkeyhanger wrote: If you can't get a SMETS2 smart meter then you can't get the cheap rate [...]
So SMETS2 are not available from all suppliers? I cant think of a good reason why unless its signal coverage related maybe. [...]
 
Oh, don't get me started! A chunk of UK households, like mine, are stuck with SMETS 1 "really dumb smart meters" that are not compatible with EV tariffs (cheap overnight rates). Many (most?) suppliers won't replace SMETS 1 meters with SMETS 2 meters because there is a chance that, at some point in the future, the SMETS 1 meter may be able to get a software upgrade to allow it join the national DCC network of SMETS 2 meters.

I am with Bulb (yes, the one on special administration, effectively nationalised at a cost of £1.7bn to taxpayers, too big to fail like banks during the financial crisis, with likely spillovers to all UK electricity bill payers in due course). Bulb has an EV tariff (cheap overnight rates) that isn't too bad in price, if you have a SMETS 2 meter. But their customer support made it clear, beyond ambiguity, that SMETS 1 meters will not be able to take advantage of their EV tariff even when and if (and that's a big IF) the SMETS 1 meter gets a software upgrade to automatically submit meter readings. (Don't ask why, there is no logic or explanation.) And this is despite their EV tariff web page stating the opposite, that SMETS 1 meters will be compatible with the EV tariff. Their customer services made it clear that that web page provides incorrect information and that they are in process of amending it -- for months. (How hard is it to update their own web page to remove false statements?) And Bulb also made it clear to me that they will not replace my SMETS 1 meter with a SMETS 2 meter because "you already have a smart meter". Perfectly Kafkaesque.

I queried a few other suppliers a few weeks ago and found a mixed picture. Some suppliers like Bulb and EDF are not prepared to replace a SMETS 1 meter with a SMETS 2 meter in order for the customer to take advantage of an EV tariff (cheap overnight rates), while other suppliers like Shell Energy and Octopus state that they would be willing to do it.

"Then switch to Octopus", I hear you say. Well, thanks for the salt on my wound! :D Octopus and many (most?) other energy suppliers are not currently taking on new customers (already for a while) other than on fixed-price tariffs that are more expensive than the Ofgem price cap. Try getting a new quote on their website, you'll get this message:
You need to know this 👇
Right now, energy prices are at record highs, and most homes will be better off staying with their current energy supplier for the winter.
If your fixed term is coming to an end, don't choose a new tariff or switch supplier.
Instead, let your supplier automatically move you to their default tariff, so your prices are protected by the Government's Energy Price Cap.
I've read and understood the above, and I would still like a quote to switch to Octopus
Clicking the link at the bottom leads to another warning:
With global energy prices at record highs, you're unlikely to be better off by switching at this time.
If you think that's incorrect and would like a personalised quote, please call and speak to one of our experts on 08081693274 with your current energy prices to hand. Our lines are open 9am - 5pm Monday to Thursday and 9am - 4pm on Friday.
I phoned them three weeks ago and they pretty much refused to give me a quote on the phone too, by simply insisting that I would be better off staying with my current supplier (interestingly not bothering to ask me about my current supplier or how much I currently pay), even taking into account cheaper overnight rates (interestingly not asking me how much energy I use during the day and during the night).

You guys with your SMETS 2 meters and your 5p overnight rates with Octopus are in heavenly bubble, but for the rest of us out here it is carnage! :lol: The only consolation for me is that, besides a SMETS 2 meter, the other thing I do not have is an electric car, because VW does not have microchips, etc.
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but may I ask, just out of interest, with Bulb being bailed out by the taxpayer, have you retained your existing tariff or have you been moved to the standard rates?
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Post by shire-dweller »

Scratch wrote: I don't mean to hijack this thread, but may I ask, just out of interest, with Bulb being bailed out by the taxpayer, have you retained your existing tariff or have you been moved to the standard rates?
 
Bulb has only ever had a single tariff for all customers, the only variations being for pre-payment meters and the EV tariff (cheap overnight rates). They don't do fixed rate / fixed term tariffs or promotional deals. Therefore I was, and remain, on their only tariff, variable standard rate and capped by the Ofgem price cap.

That's actually something I appreciated about Bulb. No such thing as "special deals for new customers only", no need to switch "at the end of the deal period" and all customers on the same tariff. Their single tariff was reasonably competitive against other suppliers' special deals, not the cheapest but not the most expensive either, with 100% renewable electricity and partially green gas. This was attractive to me and the reason why I've been with them for years (only switching when moving home). Clearly I was not the only one, as Bulb grew from new player to 7th largest supplier in the UK, only behind "the big six".

By the way, in some articles, reporters or "energy market experts" stated that Bulb had "no unique selling point" and accused Bulb of "greenwashing" with their 100% renewable electricity claim because Bulb didn't have energy purchase contracts with renewable energy generators for 100% of the electricity. I disagree on both points. Bulb's website was always very clear (for years) that the 100% renewable claim was based on the purchase of Renewable Energy Guarantees of Origin (REGO) Certificates issued by Ofgem to match customers' consumption. As far as I understand it, this means that the kilowatt-hours of my electricity bill are matched by kilowatt-hours put into the national grid by some renewable generator somewhere in the UK. What does it matter if that generator didn't sell directly to Bulb? As long as the energy went into the grid. And it's the same for the majority of suppliers who claim 100% renewable energy. On the matter of Bulb's unique selling point, well, that's the single green tariff for all customers and no need to switch as long as their tariff remained averagely competitive, which it did.

That it went bankrupt is another matter. They may have mismanaged advance energy purchase, but it's a wave of suppliers going bankrupt and if you ask me, what's ultimately to blame is the UK government's indecision between a free market where competition determines prices, and a state controlled economy where prices are dictated by elections and voter outcry. Really, the Ofgem price cap of worthy of Venezuela's Hugo Chávez: "Mr President, rice is too expensive!" "Today I decree that no shop can sell a kilogram of rice for more than 20 pence." No matter that the kilogram of rice costs 40p to produce. Don't get me wrong, I am not a free market neoliberal, in fact I sympathise with the idea of energy and water being nationalised. Either that or the free market, but the price cap is on the fence. Forcing suppliers to sell energy below wholesale costs and driving them into bankruptcy can't be an optimal outcome.
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