I'm a bit worried about the range

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Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

Jel wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:06 am I'll now make sure to check the Power Meter when I get into the car to see where the levels are. There's no documentation in the ID3 manual specifically stating that when the meters are lower this will initiate the battery heating system, it only refers to restricted power and regen. Not sure if the manual has been updated to include this information.

Not sure why this isn't made clearer to the driver. I'm sure most drivers would like to know when the battery heating system is in use.

This is a really good article to learn more about what goes on behind the scenes: https://nextmove.de/winter-performance- ... -verhicles

Electrovert
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Post by Electrovert »

I’ve just had my 1st Edition for 3 days. I’m also concerned about the range especially when I turn on the climate control to 22-23 degrees - around zero degrees outside. Noticed that if I turn the climate control off then the range jumps up by about 30 miles and vice versa. This is going to be an education learning how to get the best range.

I would love it if OllieExteriD3 is correct about his range estimates in different weather conditions and Jel’s 90 miles using 75% battery does sound very concerning.

Anyone else getting dire ranges in cold weather and small trips driving?
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

Pre-heat the cabin while the car is charging, that is apparently the single biggest thing you can do in cold weather to maximise range.
Last edited by Deleted User 192 on Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Electrovert
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Post by Electrovert »

Thanks scott28tt for that suggestion. I’ll give that a go!
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

Many short trips without pre-heating is the worst possible scenario for consumption (and therefore range), so you might be experiencing the worst case scenario - most of my usage at the moment is exactly the same as yours by the way!
G4XUR
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Post by G4XUR »

Don't expect very far, manufacturer's claims are very optimistic.
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

G4XUR wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:35 pm Don't expect very far, manufacturer's claims are very optimistic.

WLTP isn’t a manufacturer’s “claim” if that’s what you were referring to, it’s a legal requirement but is tested under VERY specific conditions which include 15-23 degrees Celsius - this is perfect for EV battery efficiency, so any range “reduction” is not specific to VW or the ID.3.
OllyExeterID3
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Post by OllyExeterID3 »

scott28tt wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:42 pm
G4XUR wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:35 pm Don't expect very far, manufacturer's claims are very optimistic.

WLTP isn’t a manufacturer’s “claim” if that’s what you were referring to, it’s a legal requirement but is tested under VERY specific conditions which include 15-23 degrees Celsius - this is perfect for EV battery efficiency, so any range “reduction” is not specific to VW or the ID.3.
Agreed with this. Perfectly possible to get WLTP range in ideal circumstances - it is a learning curve but think of it like the MPG - it is tested in a similar way but the only difference is, we don't measure petrol efficiency in range, only mpg. If you ran a petrol car in perfect conditions, optimising gear changes, coasting when needed, accelerating slowly and braking efficiently, the results on the MPG will be closer to that of the advertised. Similarly, wait until summer - I can pretty much guarantee that you will get close to 80% of WLTP range just by the weather being warmer.

Ultimately, it shouldn't matter unless you are treating the WLTP range as the standard and not the optimum. 'Real-world' range can vary day-by-day - the best thing you can do is be conservative with any range you see listed, just like you would with mpg. Buy the car for the experience, torque, fast charging and range adequate for pretty much most domestic journeys. Of course, if you plan to drive to Minsk and only want to stop to get a sandwich, then you will be sorely disappointed....
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

WLTP set the criterion to which the Manufacturer tests and publishes its results/claims.
It has to be at a temperature range that represents the maximum coverage of where the product is to be used and seasonal averages. 15C-23C sounds reasonable to me for European use.
We know battery peformance and range reduces at temperatures below this not least with battery heating requirement and cabin heating as added loads. Short journeys I know to my cost result in more frequent charging and actually not a lot different from an ICE in that respect as fuel consumption in both petrol and diesel are less until the engine reaches optimal operating temperature.
On various threads, if correct, battery heating and cabin heating can account for as much as 14kw of total load near to zero ambient. That is a big percentage of the battery capacity that is taken out of the range.
Anxiety will pass as soon as you get some runs in over 11C or 12C but in the meantine the Beast from the East will hit your range.
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hwhbev
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Post by hwhbev »

simonrg wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:43 pm If you look at the blue and green lines on the driver display, you will see when you first get in, they are a lot shorter than when the batteries are warm. you can tell when the batteries are warm enough when these two lines are back to full length. The car is restricting acceleration hence blue line shorter and regen hence green line is shorter, as the battery would be damaged if power was drained or replenished at full rate until warm.

I've just seen these shorter blue & green lines for the first time today. It's -0.5ºC outside and the car had not been charging. The lines started at about two-thirds their normal length and increased over time as the batteries warmed up. I noticed that the green line lengthened quicker than the blue. This is probably because the max current available with regen is much less than the max current used to accelerate so regen reaches its full capability sooner.

Thanks simonrg for bringing this to our attention.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

hwhbev wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:04 pm
simonrg wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:43 pm If you look at the blue and green lines on the driver display, you will see when you first get in, they are a lot shorter than when the batteries are warm. you can tell when the batteries are warm enough when these two lines are back to full length. The car is restricting acceleration hence blue line shorter and regen hence green line is shorter, as the battery would be damaged if power was drained or replenished at full rate until warm.

I've just seen these shorter blue & green lines for the first time today. It's -0.5ºC outside and the car had not been charging. The lines started at about two-thirds their normal length and increased over time as the batteries warmed up. I noticed that the green line lengthened quicker than the blue. This is probably because the max current available with regen is much less than the max current used to accelerate so regen reaches its full capability sooner.

Thanks simonrg for bringing this to our attention.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

simonrg and hwhbev
Good share. Certainly helps me move up the learning curve.
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Electrovert
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Post by Electrovert »

Daveion wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:35 am WLTP set the criterion to which the Manufacturer tests and publishes its results/claims.
It has to be at a temperature range that represents the maximum coverage of where the product is to be used and seasonal averages. 15C-23C sounds reasonable to me for European use.
We know battery peformance and range reduces at temperatures below this not least with battery heating requirement and cabin heating as added loads. Short journeys I know to my cost result in more frequent charging and actually not a lot different from an ICE in that respect as fuel consumption in both petrol and diesel are less until the engine reaches optimal operating temperature.
On various threads, if correct, battery heating and cabin heating can account for as much as 14kw of total load near to zero ambient. That is a big percentage of the battery capacity that is taken out of the range.
Anxiety will pass as soon as you get some runs in over 11C or 12C but in the meantine the Beast from the East will hit your range.
I would agree with the above from Daveion. Had my car for over a week and have certainly learned a lot by reading some of the threads (bedtime reading!). The cold weather hasn't been a great intro to electric cars for me, BUT I do love the car! I wasn't pre-heating/preconditioning it before, and now by doing this its restored some faith in the range - still not brilliant, but not as bad as I had thought initially. And as mentioned above, this range anxiety will tend to reduce as the weather improves. Glass half full, even if the battery is emptying! :)
OllyExeterID3
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Post by OllyExeterID3 »

Electrovert wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:24 pm
Daveion wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:35 am WLTP set the criterion to which the Manufacturer tests and publishes its results/claims.
It has to be at a temperature range that represents the maximum coverage of where the product is to be used and seasonal averages. 15C-23C sounds reasonable to me for European use.
We know battery peformance and range reduces at temperatures below this not least with battery heating requirement and cabin heating as added loads. Short journeys I know to my cost result in more frequent charging and actually not a lot different from an ICE in that respect as fuel consumption in both petrol and diesel are less until the engine reaches optimal operating temperature.
On various threads, if correct, battery heating and cabin heating can account for as much as 14kw of total load near to zero ambient. That is a big percentage of the battery capacity that is taken out of the range.
Anxiety will pass as soon as you get some runs in over 11C or 12C but in the meantine the Beast from the East will hit your range.
I would agree with the above from Daveion. Had my car for over a week and have certainly learned a lot by reading some of the threads (bedtime reading!). The cold weather hasn't been a great intro to electric cars for me, BUT I do love the car! I wasn't pre-heating/preconditioning it before, and now by doing this its restored some faith in the range - still not brilliant, but not as bad as I had thought initially. And as mentioned above, this range anxiety will tend to reduce as the weather improves. Glass half full, even if the battery is emptying! :)
Agree with Electrovert - and as you get used to the quirks of the 'guess-o-meter' and do more frequent journeys, that anxiety will melt away. I was obsessed when I had my first EV of topping it up to 100%, get worried when I had a 100 mile journey but the estimated range was 91.... I never got stuck or broke down - mainly because that anxiety helped me plan my journey. Then, as I realised actually how much you can eke out of an EV, I started to get more and more relaxed, getting to chargers with less than 10% left and knowing where there were 4 more chargers just in case. It turns into a pretty cool game, to get every last electron out of it. And I am pretty sure it improves your driving style too.

Also massively agree, I do love this car! Lockdown has meant no real long journeys since before Christmas - but I am always grinning when we do take a trip!
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Post by ColinID3 »

Just a thought to ponder when we are considering range:-
> 60kWhr is equivalent to the available energy from a modern ICE burning c.15ltr of Petrol.
> 15ltr will give you c. 200 miles range at 60mpg, or 132 miles at 40 mpg - roughly the upper and lower ends of our real world ID3 ranges.
> Our cars are 40% heavier and nearly 10% larger frontal area than a Golf (though they do have a very slippery shape)
> In comparison our last petrol Golf gave us a little over 50 mpg on mild weather long runs but under 30 mpg in winter on short city trips
We just need to think that we only have 80% of 15ltrs in the tank when we setting range expectations!!
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Post by simonrg »

ColinID3 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:34 am Just a thought to ponder when we are considering range:-
> 60kWhr is equivalent to the available energy from a modern ICE burning c.15ltr of Petrol.
> 15ltr will give you c. 200 miles range at 60mpg, or 132 miles at 40 mpg - roughly the upper and lower ends of our real world ID3 ranges.
> Our cars are 40% heavier and nearly 10% larger frontal area than a Golf (though they do have a very slippery shape)
> In comparison our last petrol Golf gave us a little over 50 mpg on mild weather long runs but under 30 mpg in winter on short city trips
We just need to think that we only have 80% of 15ltrs in the tank when we setting range expectations!!
Good point, however you also need to take into account efficiency of converting the potential energy in the stored fuel into kinetic energy of moving the vehicle, an ICE is only about 20-40% efficient (with a lot of wasted heat), whereas an EV's engine should be around 80% efficient (with no wasted heat).
So your argument is still correct, but 60kWh battery is equivalent to 30litres, so at 30mpg in winter we could expect to get less than 150miles and at 50mpg in summer less than 300miles.
ICE does have a hit from short journeys as the engine is less efficient when cold, but it doesn't have to burn extra fuel to heat the car or the battery, so lots of short journeys in an EV will have a bigger hit on EV range.
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Post by digital »

Some encouraging news on charging within the article at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/supp ... lion-boost

More charging points, easier to pay and faster repairs.
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Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

We can all worry less once the temperature averages above 13 degrees, seeing as that’s the temperature to which the car tries to heat the batteries to every time you start it.

In other words, til spring I’m accepting that my range will be a lot lower than any real world figures I may see quoted (not WLTP)
Deleted User 192

Post by Deleted User 192 »

digital wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:06 am Some encouraging news on charging within the article at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/supp ... lion-boost

More charging points, easier to pay and faster repairs.

I do hope people who CAN have their own point installed at home DO - otherwise more and more of my tax receipts will go towards subsiding others even though I paid 600 quid to have my own point.
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Post by Bromsgroveuser »

I have an id3 First . 3 months old and 1060 miles on clock because of current situation . The long range shows 2.5 miles per Kilowatt whish if I'm correct gives a real world range of approx 150 miles . Got to admit if I'd known this was going to be the case I would have thought long and hard before buying it . It still has the original software which is lacking in ability . also the only thing the app on my phone lets me do is turn the heating on and off . I also have a free wecharge card which gives £500 or 2000kw of free electricity only problem is there are only 10 Ionity chargers in the Uk for the 2000kw and none anywhere near me and if use use any of the rare chargers that accept the card Wecharge then add another charge on top which makes it expensive electricity . Another example of VW bending the truth to suit them
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