1. Avoid regular fast charging with direct current (DC) due to the high charging currents. Fast charging with direct current (DC) uses a very high charging power. Frequent fast charging can permanently reduce the battery capacity of the high-voltage battery. You should primarily charge the high-voltage battery at a charging station or wall box using alternating current (AC). [From the manual]
2. "The Master Technician also states that you should not regularly charge with a 3 pin charger – he does say that you should get a Pod Point House charger." [An email from my dealer after reporting an error message on the display]. Which contradicts...
3. AC (alternating current) charging at a mains socket Alternating current (AC): A longer charging time should be planned, e.g. over night. [From the manual]
4. Do not fully charge the high-voltage battery in everyday operation. Set an upper battery charge limit of 80% in the charging settings. If the high-voltage battery has been fully charged, drive off immediately if possible. [From the manual]
5. In the case of standing times of longer than 12 hours, park the vehicle with a charge level of at least 30% and no more than 80% [From the manual]
6. Even if you connect to a public AC charger, whatever its rating it will only charge at 11kWh. [Found out through experience]
Don't get me wrong - I enjoy driving the ID.3 and I'm glad I bought it. I also feel smug that I've caused virtually no CO2 emissions since December. But it does seem that there are a lot of do's and don't's which were never explained when we tested and then bought the car (and paid £180 for the 3 pin plug charger cable).
In my case I particularly want to use the 3 pin plug charger - I'm retired so don't need to charge overnight, and because we have solar panels I was hoping to get virtually free charging during the day from around March to September. And now the "Master technician" is saying I shouldn't use it on a regular basis, but install a Pod Point, which is going to cause logistical problems as well as extra expense.
For those of you who rely on public chargers, the manual is saying not to use fast DC chargers regularly, but to stick to AC, which means a maximum of 11kWh. So if you're on a long journey you'll be spending more time charging than driving!
THINGS MY DEALER DIDN'T TELL ME ABOUT CHARGING
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hungerdunger
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- Location: Carmarthen, West Wales
ID.3 1st Edition - Manganese Grey - purchased 15/12/20.
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HeidiFlowerpt Driver
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:30 pm
The ID.3 battery isn't different than other electric cars and owners have built up plenty of experience over a decade, operating Nissan Leafs, Teslas etc. Most of these drivers charge where they need to without worrying too much about damaging their battery.
It turns out that lithium ion batteries can be damaged by stressing them at very low or very high temperatures, and also by pumping the last little bit of charge into them up to 100%. Otherwise they can be charged by rapid DC chargers or fast AC chargers or slow AC 3 pin chargers and will come to no harm.
Charging a car very fast, for instance at 100kW DC, will heat the battery up, and the car's protective battery cooling system should cut in to cool it during the charge to prevent damage. Conversely, if you initiate a fast charge when the battery is too cold, the car will warm the battery in order to prevent damage.
Frequently charging the car to 100%, particularly if you then leave the car unused, will cause premature degradation, which is why VW recommend routinely charging to 80%. Of course if you need to do a long journey without plenty of chargepoints en route, it makes sense to charge the car to 100% just before setting out.
I'd be interested in what others think, but I believe you've probably been given poor advice not to use your 3 pin charger, the only reason I'm aware of to use a wall box instead is that you will get the car charged quicker. The ID.3 can take an AC charge at up to 11kW, but most wall boxes fed from a single phase supply in the UK will deliver a maximum of abut 7.4kW. That's still much better than the 3kW or less that you get from a 3 pin charger.
It turns out that lithium ion batteries can be damaged by stressing them at very low or very high temperatures, and also by pumping the last little bit of charge into them up to 100%. Otherwise they can be charged by rapid DC chargers or fast AC chargers or slow AC 3 pin chargers and will come to no harm.
Charging a car very fast, for instance at 100kW DC, will heat the battery up, and the car's protective battery cooling system should cut in to cool it during the charge to prevent damage. Conversely, if you initiate a fast charge when the battery is too cold, the car will warm the battery in order to prevent damage.
Frequently charging the car to 100%, particularly if you then leave the car unused, will cause premature degradation, which is why VW recommend routinely charging to 80%. Of course if you need to do a long journey without plenty of chargepoints en route, it makes sense to charge the car to 100% just before setting out.
I'd be interested in what others think, but I believe you've probably been given poor advice not to use your 3 pin charger, the only reason I'm aware of to use a wall box instead is that you will get the car charged quicker. The ID.3 can take an AC charge at up to 11kW, but most wall boxes fed from a single phase supply in the UK will deliver a maximum of abut 7.4kW. That's still much better than the 3kW or less that you get from a 3 pin charger.
ID.3 1st Edition Manganese Grey - called Heidi Flowerpot
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Deleted User 192
I didn’t initiate any conversations with my dealer about charging, I had read this: https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/r ... nd-waranty
I’ve not read anything anywhere about not using a granny regularly from the perspective of the car, the only “warnings” seem to be about the domestic socket and extension leads.
I’ve not read anything anywhere about not using a granny regularly from the perspective of the car, the only “warnings” seem to be about the domestic socket and extension leads.
I agree with Scott, the granny charger thing is a bit misleading. I come from an electronic engineering background (many years ago but the principals remain the same).
Before I had a Pod Point installed, I used a granny cable for the first two weeks every day to charge from about 50-60 to 80% and had no problems whatsoever. The cable was left out in the rain and worked perfectly every time I plugged it in. I was also pulling a constant 12-13 amps from the 3 pin socket for many hours whilst charging.
NOW - the important bits. If you intend to pull that amount of current from a standard 13amp socket you need to be very confident that A. The complete set of wiring/infrastructure from your CU to the endpoint socket is in good condition, appropriately sized, and protected. B. You need to ensure you have a high-quality socket with which to plug the granny charger into. C. You need to understand and appreciate that high current over extended periods will produce heat.
My setup which included a 10-meter extension cable purchased from "toughleads" was IP65 rated and overrated from a cable point of view. The granny charger was a variable rate model from third rock energy which I set to 13A. The 13A socket I used to plug the whole lot into was a metal-clad heavy-duty double MK Socket. I only used one socket and never anything else in the second. For the first few days I used a cheap IR thermometer to check both the granny charger plug and extension socket and main socket until I was happy they weren't overheating. To be fair they didn't even get warm to the touch.
I can understand why the cautious advice is given out routinely, electricity and water and or too much heat caused by extended high current draw do not mix well. Without question, a fixed wall charger like pod point is far safer if you don't fully understand the risks associated with the above but granny chargers can work and work well, especially if you can vary the max current draw to suit your needs. I wouldn't rock up at someone else's house and charge at 13A from any old socket but 6-8A and I'd sleep easy.
Before I had a Pod Point installed, I used a granny cable for the first two weeks every day to charge from about 50-60 to 80% and had no problems whatsoever. The cable was left out in the rain and worked perfectly every time I plugged it in. I was also pulling a constant 12-13 amps from the 3 pin socket for many hours whilst charging.
NOW - the important bits. If you intend to pull that amount of current from a standard 13amp socket you need to be very confident that A. The complete set of wiring/infrastructure from your CU to the endpoint socket is in good condition, appropriately sized, and protected. B. You need to ensure you have a high-quality socket with which to plug the granny charger into. C. You need to understand and appreciate that high current over extended periods will produce heat.
My setup which included a 10-meter extension cable purchased from "toughleads" was IP65 rated and overrated from a cable point of view. The granny charger was a variable rate model from third rock energy which I set to 13A. The 13A socket I used to plug the whole lot into was a metal-clad heavy-duty double MK Socket. I only used one socket and never anything else in the second. For the first few days I used a cheap IR thermometer to check both the granny charger plug and extension socket and main socket until I was happy they weren't overheating. To be fair they didn't even get warm to the touch.
I can understand why the cautious advice is given out routinely, electricity and water and or too much heat caused by extended high current draw do not mix well. Without question, a fixed wall charger like pod point is far safer if you don't fully understand the risks associated with the above but granny chargers can work and work well, especially if you can vary the max current draw to suit your needs. I wouldn't rock up at someone else's house and charge at 13A from any old socket but 6-8A and I'd sleep easy.
ID3 1st UK.
>> I also feel smug that I've caused virtually no CO2 emissions since December. .
If only that were true in the UK where our electricity generation mix is 40% from burning fossil fuels, mainly gas. Glad it’s very slowly improving with all the renewable investment.
If only that were true in the UK where our electricity generation mix is 40% from burning fossil fuels, mainly gas. Glad it’s very slowly improving with all the renewable investment.
ID.3 150kW Life Pro Performance 62kWh, v0792, battleship grey.
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In my case I particularly want to use the 3 pin plug charger - I'm retired so don't need to charge overnight, and because we have solar panels I was hoping to get virtually free charging during the day from around March to September. And now the "Master technician" is saying I shouldn't use it on a regular basis, but install a Pod Point, which is going to cause logistical problems as well as extra expense.
If you get a zappi charger that can be connected to your solar pv and preferentially charge from those. Worth thinking about.
If you get a zappi charger that can be connected to your solar pv and preferentially charge from those. Worth thinking about.
gwr
ID3 Tech 2.3
N Scotland
ID3 Tech 2.3
N Scotland
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hungerdunger
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:28 pm
- Location: Carmarthen, West Wales
Except that in my case we have our electricity supplied by Ecotricity (100% renewables) topped up by our own solar panels, which is why I made the comment. Ecotriciy also supply the Electric Highway chargers at Motorway services, and I believe that Ionity also guarantee their electricity comes from renewables.>> I also feel smug that I've caused virtually no CO2 emissions since December. .
If only that were true in the UK where our electricity generation mix is 40% from burning fossil fuels, mainly gas. Glad it’s very slowly improving with all the renewable investment.
ID.3 1st Edition - Manganese Grey - purchased 15/12/20.
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HeidiFlowerpt Driver
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:30 pm
The OP has solar panels and if he's charging at home using excess solar, then his motoring has been emissions-free as he says.mez wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:24 pm >> I also feel smug that I've caused virtually no CO2 emissions since December. .
If only that were true in the UK where our electricity generation mix is 40% from burning fossil fuels, mainly gas. Glad it’s very slowly improving with all the renewable investment.
40% of electricity generation by burning fossil fuels certainly isn't as good as wholly renewable generation, but it's reducing fast. And many suppliers now offer tariffs that they claim to be carbon neutral, or wholly generated from renewable resources. The UK is among the leaders internationally in this area, behind countries like Norway who have surplus hydro-electric. Clearly with my Greta Thunberg fanboy hat on, that's not nearly good enough, but it's a start.
VW have had external auditors confirm their claim that the ID.3 is manufactured carbon-neutral including almost all of their supply chain. So our cars are about the best you can get from an environmental perspective, short of giving up private transport altogether!
ID.3 1st Edition Manganese Grey - called Heidi Flowerpot
I used a BMW i3 for 4 years and never had to worry about how to charge my battery. I don’t really know what game is VW playing here but many other forums actually recommend charging to 100% to balance the cells.
VW have got so many things wrong with this car, I am surprised the where are spinning. I regret moving away from BMW.
VW have got so many things wrong with this car, I am surprised the where are spinning. I regret moving away from BMW.
I think that’s more than a little over dramatic - to the point I wonder if you’re just trolling?!mc1611 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:50 pm I used a BMW i3 for 4 years and never had to worry about how to charge my battery. I don’t really know what game is VW playing here but many other forums actually recommend charging to 100% to balance the cells.
VW have got so many things wrong with this car, I am surprised the where are spinning. I regret moving away from BMW.
The reality is that the ID.3 is a great car, impacted only by some under-developed early software; that VW have always been very upfront and public about.
The batteries are no different to the lithium batteries in other cars - or in other walks of life - VW are actually just being very transparent re. The care tips that have been known in other industries for years. There is a general awareness that lithium cells do not handle being left at full charge for long periods - many other applications (non EV) actually have a formal ‘storage’ process that would charge/discharge cells to given voltage per cell before being left. 20%-80% is the optimum range for lithium cells in normal operation. Again they dislike being run completely flat in the same way they don’t like being left at full charge. The results of treating the cells badly is that they ‘puff’ - ie some of the chemical reaction is converted to gas and it is released into the pack. This reduces life and charge cycle capacity. SO, this is not a VW thing - as I say, VW are just being transparent to help customers maximise longevity form the battery packs. That doesn’t mean you can’t charge to 100% - but you wouldn’t want to do so and leave it say that way once charged - you’d want to be using that charge fairly soon after putting it in. Re. balancing the cells - that happens DURING the charge (assuming the charging set up is good) - it’s a continuous process to not allow any one cell to ‘run away’ during the charge process. Only very old, poor, charge setups would leave the balancing to the end of the process or not balance at all.
Back to random flippant comments - if you want to talk unreliable cars...give me half an hour on my experience with BMWs! Have owned them and won’t be going back in a hurry - even to the point that BMW UK exchanged one of our cars for us at their loss given they agreed it was generally a lemon...and then even the new replacement they provided continued to have multiple issues and let us down regularly - gave up in the end and chopped it in for another brand....
ID.3 1st Edition
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Salmonfisher
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Think you were a bit hard on mc1611. Won't argue with your view on charging although others may disagree. I don't pretend to know answer. However as a past VW owner and fan the ID3 debacle has totally put me off buying an ID4 until I hear all the software and charging issues have been resolved. I would have ordered one by now but seriously researching an alternative as my essentials include total reliability.
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Deleted User 192
mc1611 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:50 pm I used a BMW i3 for 4 years and never had to worry about how to charge my battery. I don’t really know what game is VW playing here but many other forums actually recommend charging to 100% to balance the cells.
VW have got so many things wrong with this car, I am surprised the where are spinning. I regret moving away from BMW.
I'll stick with what VW say: https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/r ... nd-waranty
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Deleted User 192
It did when I posted it, so probably the VW website playing up.
The short version: Charge to 80% as the norm, to higher than that when you're going to need the range, but if you do go above 80% then set off as soon as possible after finishing the charge.
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HeidiFlowerpt Driver
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:30 pm
I have a home chargepoint, and my service provider is Octopus, so I can charge at home cheaply. However I've only so far done that once, because I also have a local public DC rapid charger on the Osprey network, at which I can charge free using the £500 credit on my VW WeCharge card. So I've been using that.
The VW ID.3 manual does advise not to use a high power DC charger regularly, but that's what I've been doing...
The VW ID.3 manual does advise not to use a high power DC charger regularly, but that's what I've been doing...
ID.3 1st Edition Manganese Grey - called Heidi Flowerpot
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OllyExeterID3
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:45 pm
Just my two cents (as both a previous i3 owner and a current ID3 owner). I never had a problem with charging degradation - we got our i3 second hand and it still had somewhere in the region of approx 90% of its original battery capacity (averaged 110 miles to 100% charge). We didn't have a driveway so only ever used CCS charging when out and about - in two years/20,000 miles saw no change in SoC or battery drain.
I think the 'warnings' and advice from VW are just around prudence and ensuring that you maximise the life of the battery - it is not indicative of a massive fault with the battery capacity nor should you take it as gospel that you should only stick to AC. The advice around not charging too much from CCS and 3-pin is also partially right but I don't think it is a problem if you are heading out on a long journey - I certainly wouldn't recommend sticking to 11kw AC charging on a 500 mile journey!
Just like an ICE car, certain factors are at play with a BEV - the main difference is the maintenance and care regimes are different, not more.
Finally - the joy (and frustration) in the EV world is that, commercially (not including GM's EV1), EVs have only been around for around 11 years so manufacturers are understandably jittery around battery tech, particularly as Li-ion batteries do have history when it comes to degradation.
But, as any previous EV owner will tell you, any losses are minimal and do not detract from the overall benefits of the car. In terms of the OP - I would charge from your solar panels when the sun shines and the car needs some juice, but don't fret about using CCS when out and about. One journey in our i3, we did 6 CCS charges in two days (outbound and return). I think as long as this isn't a daily occurrence, it really shouldn't matter too much.
I think the 'warnings' and advice from VW are just around prudence and ensuring that you maximise the life of the battery - it is not indicative of a massive fault with the battery capacity nor should you take it as gospel that you should only stick to AC. The advice around not charging too much from CCS and 3-pin is also partially right but I don't think it is a problem if you are heading out on a long journey - I certainly wouldn't recommend sticking to 11kw AC charging on a 500 mile journey!
Just like an ICE car, certain factors are at play with a BEV - the main difference is the maintenance and care regimes are different, not more.
Finally - the joy (and frustration) in the EV world is that, commercially (not including GM's EV1), EVs have only been around for around 11 years so manufacturers are understandably jittery around battery tech, particularly as Li-ion batteries do have history when it comes to degradation.
But, as any previous EV owner will tell you, any losses are minimal and do not detract from the overall benefits of the car. In terms of the OP - I would charge from your solar panels when the sun shines and the car needs some juice, but don't fret about using CCS when out and about. One journey in our i3, we did 6 CCS charges in two days (outbound and return). I think as long as this isn't a daily occurrence, it really shouldn't matter too much.
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HeidiFlowerpt Driver
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:30 pm
Thank you OllyExeterID3 for reassurance, based on experience. Good to know that.
Regarding Lithium ion batteries and charging to 80%/100%, the batteries in mobile phones are similar, and they seem to last about two years, after which you buy a new battery or a new phone. About five years ago I discovered an app, Accubattery, which monitors battery charge and condition in mobile phones or tablets. The app recommends charging to 80%, and to that end it chirps when the device is charging and reaches 80%. I used the app, liked it, and when I changed my phone installed the app from new and have used it consistently, pulling the charge cable when the charge reaches 80%. My Google Pixel 2XL is now three and a half years old, and the battery condition is still reported as 90%. In practice the phone still lasts through the day just like it did when new. I couldn't be happier - the battery in this phone is not user-replaceable and when it finally fails I'll probably get a new phone, but I'd rather spend the money on accessories for my ID.3.
Regarding Lithium ion batteries and charging to 80%/100%, the batteries in mobile phones are similar, and they seem to last about two years, after which you buy a new battery or a new phone. About five years ago I discovered an app, Accubattery, which monitors battery charge and condition in mobile phones or tablets. The app recommends charging to 80%, and to that end it chirps when the device is charging and reaches 80%. I used the app, liked it, and when I changed my phone installed the app from new and have used it consistently, pulling the charge cable when the charge reaches 80%. My Google Pixel 2XL is now three and a half years old, and the battery condition is still reported as 90%. In practice the phone still lasts through the day just like it did when new. I couldn't be happier - the battery in this phone is not user-replaceable and when it finally fails I'll probably get a new phone, but I'd rather spend the money on accessories for my ID.3.
ID.3 1st Edition Manganese Grey - called Heidi Flowerpot
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HeidiFlowerpt Driver
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- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:30 pm
Addendum:
I wonder why the phone manufacturers don't advise routinely charging to 80% to prolong the life of the battery, like VW do? Could it be because they want to sell us new phones every two years?
I wonder why the phone manufacturers don't advise routinely charging to 80% to prolong the life of the battery, like VW do? Could it be because they want to sell us new phones every two years?
ID.3 1st Edition Manganese Grey - called Heidi Flowerpot
None of the phones I have ever had have suffered from batter problems in two years' use. I tend to keep my phones for at least 4 years and the last iPhone 6 I had is still being used with no issues by my children. I think you are exaggerating the issue of battery degradation.
ID.3 Family, Andoya Alloys, Heat Pump. Grab a £50 Octopus Credit https://share.octopus.energy/silk-guppy-104
Most mobile phones' duty cycles are much more extreme than EVs. I'm guessing that your phone goes from full to nearly flat every day. When you want it to be charged you want it done as quickly as possible, except perhaps overnight where (with iOS, not sure about Android) it learns your sleep times and will fast charge to about 80% and then top-up to 100% just before your normally wake up. Most EVs have a much more relaxed duty cycle, spend most of their time charged to between 20% and 80%, and have much more sophisticate battery management system. Furthermore a mobile phone battery has to cope with heat (a phone will be close to 37ºC if you keep it in your pocket) and will get even warmer when being used heavily. An EV battery on the other hand is rarely above 25ºC and thermal management will prevent it getting too hot or too cold.
