The Chancellor is set to lose out on billions

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G43FAN

Post by G43FAN »

Smitten wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:57 pm Road pricing is used throughout Norway. Zero emission vehicles get a 50% to 100% discount in many places - but not all. You pay monthly by miles driven and vehicle type with the most polluting paying the most and so on. The system is call Autopass and each vehicle has a small electronic toll tag fixed in the windscreen which is picked up by the automated toll stations as you pass them. Also works for most ferries (and many of these are electric as well). To me it seems very fair and I would be happy to pay by use in the UK. Seems like a sensible approach for the UK as well with our crowded road system as you could have time of use tariffs like we do with electricity to spread traffic load for example. Might also help spread the load on the charging network.

www.autopass.no/en/payment/zeroemissionsvehicles
250,000 miles of roads versus 11,000
32 million cars (registered) versus 3 million
67 million population versus 5.4 million

How much was track and Trace? £37 billion over 2 years. I might have to put a bid in for the UK Autopass system if it's happening.

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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

I'll go with you in with a joint bid...

Seriously though, London (inside north & south circular) already has the capability to turn this on just using number plate recognition. Then there are various toll roads and bridges already in place and of course the Govt has to do something. There are few choices, but road usage charging is the most obvious and the easiest to implement (if costly). New systems like the V2X technology that the VW range has pioneered (and other manufacturers are supporting) could also be an option but would likely take longer to deploy because of standards.
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Post by Malcster »

As soon as some electronic device for road charging is installed.
There will be those who manage to bypass it/modify it etc

Petrol was an easy fix a few pence per litre for tax that way the old dear Down the road pays next to nothing for a trip to the shops once a fortnight
yet the 20k mile a year rep paid his fair share surprised it was never introduced

A similar scheme for ev cars would be the same principle per kw
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Post by Smitten »

G43FAN wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:54 pm
Smitten wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:57 pm Road pricing is used throughout Norway. Zero emission vehicles get a 50% to 100% discount in many places - but not all. You pay monthly by miles driven and vehicle type with the most polluting paying the most and so on. The system is call Autopass and each vehicle has a small electronic toll tag fixed in the windscreen which is picked up by the automated toll stations as you pass them. Also works for most ferries (and many of these are electric as well). To me it seems very fair and I would be happy to pay by use in the UK. Seems like a sensible approach for the UK as well with our crowded road system as you could have time of use tariffs like we do with electricity to spread traffic load for example. Might also help spread the load on the charging network.

www.autopass.no/en/payment/zeroemissionsvehicles
250,000 miles of roads versus 11,000
32 million cars (registered) versus 3 million
67 million population versus 5.4 million

How much was track and Trace? £37 billion over 2 years. I might have to put a bid in for the UK Autopass system if it's happening.
Its basically software and computers are very good at repetitive high volume tasks unlike the very expensive human element in Track and Trace :D

Norway's road system is considerably larger than you suggest at 94,000km in 2009 https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/roa ... -data.html and they only have about 600 toll recording points so not all roads are toll charged only major arterial roads and cities. So less complex than you imagine.

Congestion zone in London uses ANPR system and that works fine - goodness knows what volume of traffic involved is there but millions of vehicles annually. It works. To me is doesn't sound hugely complicated.

At £307 million per mile or nearly £1 billion for 3 miles, HS2 looks like being a contractors dream come true! Maybe get a few bids in there before the gravy train runs out :lol:
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Post by Splitty »

Malcster wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:29 pm As soon as some electronic device for road charging is installed.
There will be those who manage to bypass it/modify it etc

Petrol was an easy fix a few pence per litre for tax that way the old dear Down the road pays next to nothing for a trip to the shops once a fortnight
yet the 20k mile a year rep paid his fair share surprised it was never introduced

A similar scheme for ev cars would be the same principle per kw
You can't not pay it
The problem with this approach is that there is no common or easy method to record EV Kwh used. There is no standard for EV manufacturers to comply with and there are many different EV charge standards with no common API's. EV Charge systems would also be easy to defeat (without being able to be tracked) and why should you pay an EV tax on fuel you produced (using solar/wind)?

There will continue to be a mix of car types on the road, already we have Petrol, Diesel, Propane, PHEV, BEV, Hydrogen etc. So a scheme is needed that treats all vehicle types in the same way and that would be road charging using number plate recognition, card/toll systems like Norway or some form of car tag. Yes you could use false plates, but unless you have James Bonds DB5 you are likely to get caught using false plates.
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Post by G43FAN »

Smitten wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:37 pm
G43FAN wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:54 pm
Smitten wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:57 pm Road pricing is used throughout Norway. Zero emission vehicles get a 50% to 100% discount in many places - but not all. You pay monthly by miles driven and vehicle type with the most polluting paying the most and so on. The system is call Autopass and each vehicle has a small electronic toll tag fixed in the windscreen which is picked up by the automated toll stations as you pass them. Also works for most ferries (and many of these are electric as well). To me it seems very fair and I would be happy to pay by use in the UK. Seems like a sensible approach for the UK as well with our crowded road system as you could have time of use tariffs like we do with electricity to spread traffic load for example. Might also help spread the load on the charging network.

www.autopass.no/en/payment/zeroemissionsvehicles
250,000 miles of roads versus 11,000
32 million cars (registered) versus 3 million
67 million population versus 5.4 million

How much was track and Trace? £37 billion over 2 years. I might have to put a bid in for the UK Autopass system if it's happening.
Its basically software and computers are very good at repetitive high volume tasks unlike the very expensive human element in Track and Trace :D

Norway's road system is considerably larger than you suggest at 94,000km in 2009 https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/roa ... -data.html and they only have about 600 toll recording points so not all roads are toll charged only major arterial roads and cities. So less complex than you imagine.

Congestion zone in London uses ANPR system and that works fine - goodness knows what volume of traffic involved is there but millions of vehicles annually. It works. To me is doesn't sound hugely complicated.

At £307 million per mile or nearly £1 billion for 3 miles, HS2 looks like being a contractors dream come true! Maybe get a few bids in there before the gravy train runs out :lol:
Didn't realise they were paying people to use Track and trace, I wonder where my cheque ended up?

Norway has 10,713 kms of 'National' roads and 332 Toll stations https://www.autopass.no/en/about-autopa ... f-autopass
The total road network you are quoting includes almost 50% unmettled roads on which their is no charge. The Autopass system generates revenue to pay for future road projects and upkeep of existing roads, this conversation is around the UK using a similar system to replace the lost revenue on Fuel?
Norway also has higher fuel costs and in general the cost of living is massively higher.

My numbers for roads was misleading to a degree, but the point remains.
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Post by Andreas »

Italy and France have had toll roads for ages, so its clearly possible. But when Germany tried this in the last decade, it ended up being a car crash (haha) that cost the German taxpayer an arm and a leg. The UK already has experience with this, so it's a question of scaling. I think it's inevitable.

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Post by Smitten »

G43FAN wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:05 am
Smitten wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:37 pm
G43FAN wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:54 pm

250,000 miles of roads versus 11,000
32 million cars (registered) versus 3 million
67 million population versus 5.4 million

How much was track and Trace? £37 billion over 2 years. I might have to put a bid in for the UK Autopass system if it's happening.
Its basically software and computers are very good at repetitive high volume tasks unlike the very expensive human element in Track and Trace :D

Norway's road system is considerably larger than you suggest at 94,000km in 2009 https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/roa ... -data.html and they only have about 600 toll recording points so not all roads are toll charged only major arterial roads and cities. So less complex than you imagine.

Congestion zone in London uses ANPR system and that works fine - goodness knows what volume of traffic involved is there but millions of vehicles annually. It works. To me is doesn't sound hugely complicated.

At £307 million per mile or nearly £1 billion for 3 miles, HS2 looks like being a contractors dream come true! Maybe get a few bids in there before the gravy train runs out :lol:
Didn't realise they were paying people to use Track and trace, I wonder where my cheque ended up?

Norway has 10,713 kms of 'National' roads and 332 Toll stations https://www.autopass.no/en/about-autopa ... f-autopass
The total road network you are quoting includes almost 50% unmettled roads on which their is no charge. The Autopass system generates revenue to pay for future road projects and upkeep of existing roads, this conversation is around the UK using a similar system to replace the lost revenue on Fuel?
Norway also has higher fuel costs and in general the cost of living is massively higher.

My numbers for roads was misleading to a degree, but the point remains.
My point on track and trace concerned all those highly paid consultants sticking extra zero's on their invoices. Price Waterhouse Coopers and others have made fabulous amounts out of us poor tax payers.

Actually I don't think fuel in Norway is more expensive but you are right, the cost of living is generally much more expensive as are salaries and housing costs. They have had a toll system for many years to pay for roads. A huge cost in Norway is tunneling through mountains and under fjords of course, a problem we don't really have.

However we eill need something to replace road tax. Taxation on fuel is also going to rapidly become an issue as EVs become more common. I can't see taxing electricity being a way forward as it is already very expensive compared to gas. So a pay per use road system seems logical way of replacing government income and controlling use of vehicles at the same time. I think it is probably coming and success of the congestion charge in London proves a technological solution can work.
Tour Pro S 77kWh, heatpump, 19" Andoya wheels, Glacier White
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Order No: 314400**
Build week 24 unconfirmed
Delivery Q4 2022 delayed from Q1 2022
Cancelled order and replaced with in stock Kia EV6
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