Home Energy usage?

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shire-dweller
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:50 pm

Post by shire-dweller »

Smitten wrote: Unfortunately the reality is that the electrons you will be using to power your ASHP and EV come from the UK grid and a large chunk of that electricity is produced by burning gas and burning wood pellets at Drax at the moment. [...]
Yes, but also no. When you put it like that, it sounds like switching to a 100% renewable electricity tariff counts for nothing, because there's no way for me to avoid gas (and even coal) being burnt to generate the electricity that goes into the grid and that I use to charge my electric car and to power my heat pump (when eventually VW delivers the ID.3 and when I get the heat pump fitted...).

Yet I am reasoning that a 100% renewable electricity tariff (backed by Ofgem's REGO certificates) is just as good as (or better than) fitting solar panels to my roof, with the goal of "ensuring" that my EV and ASHP are 100% powered by renewable electricity. (For the sake of argument, let's ignore cost.)

How about this way of thinking about it. Suppose that I bought 10 solar panels and a small wind turbine :-) that happened to match (for the sake of argument) 100% of my house's energy needs. Then, consider 2 scenarios:
 
  1. I fit the 10 solar panels to my house's roof and I put up the small wind turbine on my rear garden, and connect the cables to my consumer unit. (Ignore planning permission and neighbours' complaints...) :-)
  2. Alternatively, instead of attaching them to my house, I rent a small piece of farmland 100 miles away and I fit the panels and turbine to the ground over there, and I connect them to the national grid over there. I also fit an electricity meter that measures how much energy my panels and my small turbine supplied to the grid, and every year, Ofgem issues some REGO certificates to me, matching the amount I produced on my small piece of rented farmland. Then I sell those certificates to some supplier willing to buy them, let's call it Bulb (coincidentally my current energy supplier).
In the first case (panels on my roof, turbine on my garden), the electrons that went into my EV and my ASHP came directly from the panel/turbine and no one would argue that the EV and ASHP were not using 100% renewable electricity (assuming enough energy was produced). And in the second case, what's the difference? Some of the electrons that went into my EV and my ASHP may have come from some gas power station (yuck!), but also the electrons that came out of my solar panels and my turbine (100 miles away) went into someone else's kettle and gas boiler (yuck -- because gas boilers consume electricity too). I would argue that, in the second case, I could still claim that my EV and my ASHP were powered by 100% renewable electricity because the energy they used was matched by my solar panels and my turbine connected to the grid 100 miles away.

Now, replace my hypothetical solar panels and wind turbine on my hypothetical piece of farmland 100 miles away by anyone else's wind farm / solar farm / tidal generators who are issued REGO certificates that they happened to sell to Bulb. How's that any different? Just because I am not the owner of the solar panels and turbine and they are not attached directly to my roof and garden, doesn't really change my ability to claim that my EV and ASHP are powered by 100% renewable energy as long as the money I paid to my supplier (electricity bill, 100% renewable energy tariff) was used by the supplier to buy the REGO certificates from some else's wind farm / solar farm / tidal generators, in a quantity matching my electricity usage.

This post sounds like I am trying to convince you, but I am equally trying to convince myself. :D The good news is, I think I've managed to convince myself. 8-)
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Just like my decision to buy 2 ID3s, switching from a gas boiler has a few main considerations:-

1. Initial cost - ASHP is far more expensive than a modern boiler.

2. Ongoing running costs - ASHP will cost a lot more here too, and if gas prices are no longer subsidised (they're not really highly subsidised, just exempt from a lot of taxes in the supply chain, as is electricityl that will be reflected in electricity prices too while gas accounts for 40% of electricity generation.

3. High planned maintenance costs and presumably massively higher repair bills - warranties seem to be shorter for the average ASHP vs the average modern boiler. Haven't seen much data to confirm expected lifetime of the systems.

4. Big lump in the Garden. We have a tiny back garden - the price of living in a highly desirable area (direct view of the sea/Tyne Estuary, and the street wraps around a small park), the developers packed the houses in when built 21 years ago. I don't want to lose any more garden space.

Buying an ID3 with a decent discount was no dearer than my normal car buying habits (new performance Golf/Polo every 3 years), the savings vs the pump, the convenience of having a home charger - that was an easy decision to make. The above considerations for ASHP, not convincing for me to switch right now. I expect my new boiler to last at least 15 years.
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

1. True, but grants help reduce the cost
2. Not true in 2020 gas was only 34.5%, this year it could be less. Gas prices will be going up more than electricity for a variety of reasons. Supply costs, Subsidies, potential carbon taxes etc etc.
3. Not really an issue and servicing costs depend who you talk to and what you include. If you think that servicing is just a boiler service then you are missing all the checks that should also be done annually on the HW cylinder, pressure vessels etc etc. Costs are comparable.
4. An external oil boiler is a big lump as well plus an effing great oil tank, or an internal gas boiler that takes up valuable wall space.

No one is expecting you to switch, but your situation is different to many others so everyone should take on board that actual facts/issues rather than an individual's personal experience/knowledge.
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Splitty wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:31 am 1. True, but grants help reduce the cost
2. Not true in 2020 gas was only 34.5%, this year it could be less. Gas prices will be going up more than electricity for a variety of reasons. Supply costs, Subsidies, potential carbon taxes etc etc.
3. Not really an issue and servicing costs depend who you talk to and what you include. If you think that servicing is just a boiler service then you are missing all the checks that should also be done annually on the HW cylinder, pressure vessels etc etc. Costs are comparable.
4. An external oil boiler is a big lump as well plus an effing great oil tank, or an internal gas boiler that takes up valuable wall space.

No one is expecting you to switch, but your situation is different to many others so everyone should take on board that actual facts/issues rather than an individual's personal experience/knowledge.
The initial cost of heat pumps even after grants/Subsidies is still huge compared to a modern gas boiler.

I think there are far more people in my situation (connected to the Transco piped gas network) than the alternative, relying on a big oil or LPG tank off the network. An internal gas boiler is much smaller than an ASHP - mine fits into a 50cm wide fited kitchen cupboard, not taking much wall space at all. The matter of space for a boiler is not the huge inconvenience you are calling it as. A pretty big (almost half a cubic metre) box in the garden is far more of a consideration as to where to put it.

My boiler/tank/cold water feed service/inspection costs me £95 a year, an ASHP service is in the region of £250 a year. They are not comparable.

I can't find 2021 data as a whole YTD for energy source mix, but every time I look at the instant/daily readings, Gas is almost always between 40 and 50% this year.

I doubt Gas taxing will go up. Historically neither Labour nor the Conservatives have punished people for past purchases e.g. those people who bought diesel cars with £0/£20 VED still enjoy that rate now rather than making them pay. The government can't do much about supplier costs unless they want to heavily subsidise, but won't add a wedge of carbon tax for the vast majority of households to put many into potential fuel poverty

ASHP.are not cost effective for the vast majority of UK households right now, no matter how you downplay the disadvantages and over egg the advantages.
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

You keep quoting your personal experiences, the £250 service cost is what your brother pays, most ASHP service costs are in the region of £120 per year which is less than I have had to pay for my oil boiler (£90) plus tanks etc (£85). An external oil boiler (Worcester Bosch) is bigger than an equivalent Heat pump (Mitsibushi Ecodan for example) and an Oil tank or LPG tank are about 4 -6 times the size of a heat pump

Taxes may not go up, who knows? Historically taxes have been used to change peoples behaviour. But subsidies will go away which currently make electricity a higher cost than gas and there will be more incentives (via taxes or grants) to get people to adopt alternatives to Gas/Oil.

And I am not suggesting heat pumps are an alternative to gas for most people. What I am trying to say but you keep ignoring, is that people should actually look at the facts/get quotes before making up their minds based on hearsay or individuals woe stories, there are plenty of those on this forum for the ID3, but it is a great car and the majority of people seem to be pleased with it as a choice,.
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

I saw the quotes for heat pumps when I was faced with the need to replace my old goosed boiler, I saw my cousin's fuel bills and servicing costs for the Panasonic unit he has.

The figures just don't add up right now for anyone with access to mains gas to not go and get another boiler.

It's pretty much analogous to the EV vs ICE car argument. Plenty of EV owners urging anyone living in a flat, can't get a home charger and usually spnd £5k on a 10 year old car to go and get an EV. If the convenience and low costs of home charging aren't accessible, I'd not encourage those people to get an EV until they are forced to.
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Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

Splitty wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:27 am You keep quoting your personal experiences, the £250 service cost is what your brother pays, most ASHP service costs are in the region of £120 per year which is less than I have had to pay for my oil boiler (£90) plus tanks etc (£85). An external oil boiler (Worcester Bosch) is bigger than an equivalent Heat pump (Mitsibushi Ecodan for example) and an Oil tank or LPG tank are about 4 -6 times the size of a heat pump

Taxes may not go up, who knows? Historically taxes have been used to change peoples behaviour. But subsidies will go away which currently make electricity a higher cost than gas and there will be more incentives (via taxes or grants) to get people to adopt alternatives to Gas/Oil.

And I am not suggesting heat pumps are an alternative to gas for most people. What I am trying to say but you keep ignoring, is that people should actually look at the facts/get quotes before making up their minds based on hearsay or individuals woe stories, there are plenty of those on this forum for the ID3, but it is a great car and the majority of people seem to be pleased with it as a choice,.
ASHP servicing costs. £120 per year? You obviously have no experience of Mitsubishi servicing costs, which are more than double that figure. There are organisations who will service your ASHP for £120 or less but how good are they and can they get the parts? What would you do in the event of a breakdown, which will inevitably happen at the weekend or bank holiday.
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

My Dad’s Mitsubishi ASHP’s servicing costs are about £250 year, to add more anecdata to the pile.

ASHP’s for him actually save him plenty £££ as previously the only source of heating was propane; there is zero prospect of mains gas due to rurality and propane is OMG expensive. But again, he is a very unusual case compared to your average house owner!
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