Home Energy usage?

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Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

Smitten wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am
shire-dweller wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:32 pm
Scratch wrote: We have an ASHP [Air Source Heat Pump]. If you are thinking of getting one, as this government seems to want everyone to do, DON'T! Or at least, make sure you do your homework and with the energy crisis as it is, make sure you have a very healthy bank account.
I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
It's interesting you quote Sweden and Norway. I have some experience of those countries, albeit minimal and from what I have seen there, they tend to build quality housing. Can the same be said about some of our major builders in the UK?

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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

Like others I am moving for environmental as well as practical reasons. Our house was built 6 years ago, it has UFH up and downstairs and masses of insulation as well as being thatched which also helps. We are EPC rated B so yes, modern builders can build houses that are energy efficient, giving them an incentive also helps. But then I have no idea why they put an oil boiler in when the house was clearly designed to take a heat pump. I suspect it was because the builder lived onsite in an outbuilding for a number of years and used the same boiler there (which is why it's at the end of it's useful life)
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AtrixMan
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Post by AtrixMan »

Scratch wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:54 am
Smitten wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am
shire-dweller wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:32 pm

I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
It's interesting you quote Sweden and Norway. I have some experience of those countries, albeit minimal and from what I have seen there, they tend to build quality housing. Can the same be said about some of our major builders in the UK?
I've just started using ASHP in the last 2 weeks (previously heating was LPG). Our property is about 20 years old, all of the windows and doors needed replacing and we have put a foot of insulation all over the loft. We've had teething problems, but when working properly we can still keep the place warm with a 50ºC radiator temperature, this reduces running costs.

The £5,000 grant scheme, available from April, is replacing the £8,000 RHI subsidy available today.
Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

AtrixMan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:35 pm
Scratch wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:54 am
Smitten wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am

Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
It's interesting you quote Sweden and Norway. I have some experience of those countries, albeit minimal and from what I have seen there, they tend to build quality housing. Can the same be said about some of our major builders in the UK?
I've just started using ASHP in the last 2 weeks (previously heating was LPG). Our property is about 20 years old, all of the windows and doors needed replacing and we have put a foot of insulation all over the loft. We've had teething problems, but when working properly we can still keep the place warm with a 50ºC radiator temperature, this reduces running costs.

The £5,000 grant scheme, available from April, is replacing the £8,000 RHI subsidy available today.
"The £5,000 grant scheme, available from April, is replacing the £8,000 RHI subsidy available today."
If that's the case, then yet another example of this government not taking these climate issue seriously. How long do we reckon the existing £2500 EV grant will last?
Smitten
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Post by Smitten »

Scratch wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:54 am
Smitten wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am
shire-dweller wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:32 pm

I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
It's interesting you quote Sweden and Norway. I have some experience of those countries, albeit minimal and from what I have seen there, they tend to build quality housing. Can the same be said about some of our major builders in the UK?
Likewise. I have spent a lot of time in both countries. Insulation standards on older buildings is higher than the UK and even 150 year old flats in Stockholm have original secondary single glazing to keep in heat. Installing ground source heat pumps is quite normal as frequently if you are buying a house you buy land and then a house arrives in kit form from a brochure. Indeed my ex mother-in-laws house was bought that way in the early 1980's. That house had full external insulation fitted more than 25 years ago and triple glazing in 2000. Their electricity mix is also much greener than ours:

https://sweden.se/climate/sustainabilit ... -in-sweden

https://energifaktanorge.no/en/norsk-en ... roduksjon/

That being said my sister lives in a new build in Dundee and it is built to extremely high insulation standards close to Passivhaus and she has an air source heat pump - its smaller than mine and she uses about 40% less power than me, so modern buildings are definitely more efficient but you can retrofit older houses if you add plenty of insulation.
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Splitty wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:55 am Some glaring errors there Monkey, ASHP has a coefficient of 3-4 x input so costs are not comparable in the way you describe. This table gives the detail about the energy density of the various fuels and the current costs https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy ... omparison/.

ASHP are much quieter than you allude and have to be in order to be installed outside, generally they are much quieter than a boiler. There is also a strong possibility that there will be a move away from subsidising gas prices with electricity revenues in order to encourage the uptake of alternative fuels. And yes, costs are higher, but they will come down and in a few years you won't have a choice anyway.

Our choices are limited to Oil, LPG or ASHP and next year we will switch to ASHP, running costs will be practically the same as Oil and we won't have a monster smelly oil tank in the garden, nor will we be reliant of fluctuating oil prices and noxious discharges from the boiler flue.
My Cousin has a Panasonic ASHP 16kW unit (he said it was the biggest he could get), it's like a double decker, and its definitely not quiet. You can't hear it inside from outside, but it's quite noisy outside when its working hard. Compared to a rickety old boiler i'd say it's about the same noise output. It's more than doubled his heating bills. Electricity needs to get a lot cheaper for these to be desirable to most people without having to sell it hard on its supposed environmental credentials (average 40% of national grid output is still gas derived) . It needs a £240 service every year. Water doesn't get that hot for baths - he completely regrets it. He was sold it on the pretence of saving money (comparison for money saving is based on a fully electric heating system rather than compare with gas central heating.

We got a new boiler after storm Arwen dislodged our guttering and diverted some water through our boiler flue. The old one was 20 years old, same age as the house. The new one is incredibly quiet (Worcester Bosch 27 Ri), I can't hear it at all unless I open the kitchen cupboard it's housed in.

Our future energy usage for green electricity seems to hinge on far more wind farms and a lot more nuclear power, neither of which seem forthcoming (considering a nuclear power station takes at least 20 years to commission, and our current ones are all getting a bit old - Hartlepool is running 7 years beyond its original expectations of lifespan right now.
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

It is difficult to argue about individual cases. Installing ASHP in an old property without considering heat losses, heat delivery and overall system design is never going to work. I was simply pointing out the errors in your statement about the costs of heating with ASHP compared to say oil or gas. The costs for energy delivery are broadly the same and in some cases like Oil vs ASHP, ASHP costs less. Gas subsidies will be going away and the legislation is already in place for a switch away from fossil fuels to heat homes. In my experience ASHP are quieter than boilers and do not make any noticeable noise unless you stand in front of them. And yes HW temperatures could be lower, but there are a lot of ASHP manufacturers who can deliver higher HW temperatures. Personally I am not interested in baths, they are a waste of time and money and ASHP are perfectly good for showers. Anyway, the HW cylinder needs to be heated to 65 degrees at least once a week to prevent legionnaires and that is usually done via an immersion booster (on Octopus Go rates). Ideal for those days you do want a bath.

There were several days this year where the UK's energy was derived solely from non fosil fuels.
"By the beginning of November 2021, the UK had 11,018 wind turbines with a total installed capacity of over 24.3 gigawatts: 13.9 gigawatts of onshore capacity and 10.4 gigawatts of offshore capacity"

This was last year.

Screenshot 2021-12-08 at 19.18.34.png

So wind power electricity is almost as much as gas production and will be more in the future.
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Post by Smitten »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:06 pm
Splitty wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:55 am Some glaring errors there Monkey, ASHP has a coefficient of 3-4 x input so costs are not comparable in the way you describe. This table gives the detail about the energy density of the various fuels and the current costs https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy ... omparison/.

ASHP are much quieter than you allude and have to be in order to be installed outside, generally they are much quieter than a boiler. There is also a strong possibility that there will be a move away from subsidising gas prices with electricity revenues in order to encourage the uptake of alternative fuels. And yes, costs are higher, but they will come down and in a few years you won't have a choice anyway.

Our choices are limited to Oil, LPG or ASHP and next year we will switch to ASHP, running costs will be practically the same as Oil and we won't have a monster smelly oil tank in the garden, nor will we be reliant of fluctuating oil prices and noxious discharges from the boiler flue.
My Cousin has a Panasonic ASHP 16kW unit (he said it was the biggest he could get), it's like a double decker, and its definitely not quiet. You can't hear it inside from outside, but it's quite noisy outside when its working hard. Compared to a rickety old boiler i'd say it's about the same noise output. It's more than doubled his heating bills. Electricity needs to get a lot cheaper for these to be desirable to most people without having to sell it hard on its supposed environmental credentials (average 40% of national grid output is still gas derived) . It needs a £240 service every year. Water doesn't get that hot for baths - he completely regrets it. He was sold it on the pretence of saving money (comparison for money saving is based on a fully electric heating system rather than compare with gas central heating.

We got a new boiler after storm Arwen dislodged our guttering and diverted some water through our boiler flue. The old one was 20 years old, same age as the house. The new one is incredibly quiet (Worcester Bosch 27 Ri), I can't hear it at all unless I open the kitchen cupboard it's housed in.

Our future energy usage for green electricity seems to hinge on far more wind farms and a lot more nuclear power, neither of which seem forthcoming (considering a nuclear power station takes at least 20 years to commission, and our current ones are all getting a bit old - Hartlepool is running 7 years beyond its original expectations of lifespan right now.
We have a 11.2kW Mitsubishi Ecodan and it is super quiet and about 1m tall, 1m wide - we have a large extended 4 bed semi from 1930's. We were concerned about noise but needn't have been. It is 42dB outside - a quiet library is 40dB and a fridge is about 50dB. Our energy bills are about 20% more than previously as we were on gas which is fifth of the price of electricity but the seasonal coefficient of performance of our ASHP is 3.87 so it is super efficient. You can set the hot water to any temperature you want but the most efficient setting is 52 degrees C max.

I should point out that 40% of the electricity you put in your EV also comes from burning gas so what about its environmental credentials? It isn't totally clean either. If you use the same argument then why not drive a diesel instead? We wanted to remove another source of emissions and that was our motivation. Your cousin should never have bought an ASHP to save money vs gas and it shouldn't be sold as such. Its cheaper to run than oil but not gas. Indeed our installers said we were the only house they had been to that was removing a gas boiler - they normally removed oil boilers or did new builds.

ASHP's are not a panacea and neither are EVs. They are just part of the puzzle but what is clear is emissions from Britain's housing is a problem on the same scale as emissions from cars and old leaky houses with poor insulation and gas central heating are the cause.

https://www.housing.org.uk/news-and-blo ... than-cars/

A massive hike in gas prices far greater than we have seen so far will be needed to get us off our gas boilers and cheap North Sea Gas and on to something more sustainable.
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shire-dweller
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Post by shire-dweller »

Smitten wrote: I should point out that 40% of the electricity you put in your EV also comes from burning gas so what about its environmental credentials?
This point can be addressed by switching to a 100% renewable electricity tariff, right? Or EDF's 100% nuclear. I appreciate that the national grid is interconnected (every household sharing the same electrical cables, so to speak) and the actual percentage of renewable energy generation will vary. Some call this "greenwashing", but I understand that the point of those tariffs is to create demand-side funding through Ofgem's REGO certificates (Renewable Energy Guarantees of Origin). The supplier has to match the electricity billed to the same amount of kilowatt-hours put into the grid by renewable energy generators, which creates the right kind of market demand.

My plan is to have of one of those 100% renewable electricity tariffs with an ID.3 and an ASHP, and get the house disconnected from the gas grid (so I don't have to pay for gas standing charges). I am not planning to fit solar panels on my roof because I understand that I can instead pay for large-scale renewable generation (solar farms, wind farms, tidal...) through the 100% renewable electricity tariff. Is this reasoning flawed? If it is, better to know now before getting the house disconnected from the gas grid. There is also still time to cancel my ID.3 order (and buy some cheap 7-year-old petrol car instead, like I've always done before). :-)
Smitten wrote: A massive hike in gas prices far greater than we have seen so far will be needed to get us off our gas boilers and cheap North Sea Gas and on to something more sustainable.
That, or legislation like the one recently passed to ban the sale of new ICE cars from 2030. There is talk of new gas boilers being similarly banned at some point.
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Post by Smitten »

Yes I have a green tariff too and once I have got rid of the gas hob the gas supply will go too. Unfortunately the reality is that the electrons you will be using to power your ASHP and EV come from the UK grid and a large chunk of that electricity is produced by burning gas and burning wood pellets at Drax at the moment. Coal is also used to help meet peak periods with low wind. The proportion is changing in favour of greener energy sources though and there has been a huge increase in wind energy over the past 10 years but our electricity is not clean yet, no matter how we package that in green tariffs.
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Post by shire-dweller »

Smitten wrote: Unfortunately the reality is that the electrons you will be using to power your ASHP and EV come from the UK grid and a large chunk of that electricity is produced by burning gas and burning wood pellets at Drax at the moment. [...]
Yes, but also no. When you put it like that, it sounds like switching to a 100% renewable electricity tariff counts for nothing, because there's no way for me to avoid gas (and even coal) being burnt to generate the electricity that goes into the grid and that I use to charge my electric car and to power my heat pump (when eventually VW delivers the ID.3 and when I get the heat pump fitted...).

Yet I am reasoning that a 100% renewable electricity tariff (backed by Ofgem's REGO certificates) is just as good as (or better than) fitting solar panels to my roof, with the goal of "ensuring" that my EV and ASHP are 100% powered by renewable electricity. (For the sake of argument, let's ignore cost.)

How about this way of thinking about it. Suppose that I bought 10 solar panels and a small wind turbine :-) that happened to match (for the sake of argument) 100% of my house's energy needs. Then, consider 2 scenarios:
 
  1. I fit the 10 solar panels to my house's roof and I put up the small wind turbine on my rear garden, and connect the cables to my consumer unit. (Ignore planning permission and neighbours' complaints...) :-)
  2. Alternatively, instead of attaching them to my house, I rent a small piece of farmland 100 miles away and I fit the panels and turbine to the ground over there, and I connect them to the national grid over there. I also fit an electricity meter that measures how much energy my panels and my small turbine supplied to the grid, and every year, Ofgem issues some REGO certificates to me, matching the amount I produced on my small piece of rented farmland. Then I sell those certificates to some supplier willing to buy them, let's call it Bulb (coincidentally my current energy supplier).
In the first case (panels on my roof, turbine on my garden), the electrons that went into my EV and my ASHP came directly from the panel/turbine and no one would argue that the EV and ASHP were not using 100% renewable electricity (assuming enough energy was produced). And in the second case, what's the difference? Some of the electrons that went into my EV and my ASHP may have come from some gas power station (yuck!), but also the electrons that came out of my solar panels and my turbine (100 miles away) went into someone else's kettle and gas boiler (yuck -- because gas boilers consume electricity too). I would argue that, in the second case, I could still claim that my EV and my ASHP were powered by 100% renewable electricity because the energy they used was matched by my solar panels and my turbine connected to the grid 100 miles away.

Now, replace my hypothetical solar panels and wind turbine on my hypothetical piece of farmland 100 miles away by anyone else's wind farm / solar farm / tidal generators who are issued REGO certificates that they happened to sell to Bulb. How's that any different? Just because I am not the owner of the solar panels and turbine and they are not attached directly to my roof and garden, doesn't really change my ability to claim that my EV and ASHP are powered by 100% renewable energy as long as the money I paid to my supplier (electricity bill, 100% renewable energy tariff) was used by the supplier to buy the REGO certificates from some else's wind farm / solar farm / tidal generators, in a quantity matching my electricity usage.

This post sounds like I am trying to convince you, but I am equally trying to convince myself. :D The good news is, I think I've managed to convince myself. 8-)
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Just like my decision to buy 2 ID3s, switching from a gas boiler has a few main considerations:-

1. Initial cost - ASHP is far more expensive than a modern boiler.

2. Ongoing running costs - ASHP will cost a lot more here too, and if gas prices are no longer subsidised (they're not really highly subsidised, just exempt from a lot of taxes in the supply chain, as is electricityl that will be reflected in electricity prices too while gas accounts for 40% of electricity generation.

3. High planned maintenance costs and presumably massively higher repair bills - warranties seem to be shorter for the average ASHP vs the average modern boiler. Haven't seen much data to confirm expected lifetime of the systems.

4. Big lump in the Garden. We have a tiny back garden - the price of living in a highly desirable area (direct view of the sea/Tyne Estuary, and the street wraps around a small park), the developers packed the houses in when built 21 years ago. I don't want to lose any more garden space.

Buying an ID3 with a decent discount was no dearer than my normal car buying habits (new performance Golf/Polo every 3 years), the savings vs the pump, the convenience of having a home charger - that was an easy decision to make. The above considerations for ASHP, not convincing for me to switch right now. I expect my new boiler to last at least 15 years.
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

1. True, but grants help reduce the cost
2. Not true in 2020 gas was only 34.5%, this year it could be less. Gas prices will be going up more than electricity for a variety of reasons. Supply costs, Subsidies, potential carbon taxes etc etc.
3. Not really an issue and servicing costs depend who you talk to and what you include. If you think that servicing is just a boiler service then you are missing all the checks that should also be done annually on the HW cylinder, pressure vessels etc etc. Costs are comparable.
4. An external oil boiler is a big lump as well plus an effing great oil tank, or an internal gas boiler that takes up valuable wall space.

No one is expecting you to switch, but your situation is different to many others so everyone should take on board that actual facts/issues rather than an individual's personal experience/knowledge.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Splitty wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:31 am 1. True, but grants help reduce the cost
2. Not true in 2020 gas was only 34.5%, this year it could be less. Gas prices will be going up more than electricity for a variety of reasons. Supply costs, Subsidies, potential carbon taxes etc etc.
3. Not really an issue and servicing costs depend who you talk to and what you include. If you think that servicing is just a boiler service then you are missing all the checks that should also be done annually on the HW cylinder, pressure vessels etc etc. Costs are comparable.
4. An external oil boiler is a big lump as well plus an effing great oil tank, or an internal gas boiler that takes up valuable wall space.

No one is expecting you to switch, but your situation is different to many others so everyone should take on board that actual facts/issues rather than an individual's personal experience/knowledge.
The initial cost of heat pumps even after grants/Subsidies is still huge compared to a modern gas boiler.

I think there are far more people in my situation (connected to the Transco piped gas network) than the alternative, relying on a big oil or LPG tank off the network. An internal gas boiler is much smaller than an ASHP - mine fits into a 50cm wide fited kitchen cupboard, not taking much wall space at all. The matter of space for a boiler is not the huge inconvenience you are calling it as. A pretty big (almost half a cubic metre) box in the garden is far more of a consideration as to where to put it.

My boiler/tank/cold water feed service/inspection costs me £95 a year, an ASHP service is in the region of £250 a year. They are not comparable.

I can't find 2021 data as a whole YTD for energy source mix, but every time I look at the instant/daily readings, Gas is almost always between 40 and 50% this year.

I doubt Gas taxing will go up. Historically neither Labour nor the Conservatives have punished people for past purchases e.g. those people who bought diesel cars with £0/£20 VED still enjoy that rate now rather than making them pay. The government can't do much about supplier costs unless they want to heavily subsidise, but won't add a wedge of carbon tax for the vast majority of households to put many into potential fuel poverty

ASHP.are not cost effective for the vast majority of UK households right now, no matter how you downplay the disadvantages and over egg the advantages.
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

You keep quoting your personal experiences, the £250 service cost is what your brother pays, most ASHP service costs are in the region of £120 per year which is less than I have had to pay for my oil boiler (£90) plus tanks etc (£85). An external oil boiler (Worcester Bosch) is bigger than an equivalent Heat pump (Mitsibushi Ecodan for example) and an Oil tank or LPG tank are about 4 -6 times the size of a heat pump

Taxes may not go up, who knows? Historically taxes have been used to change peoples behaviour. But subsidies will go away which currently make electricity a higher cost than gas and there will be more incentives (via taxes or grants) to get people to adopt alternatives to Gas/Oil.

And I am not suggesting heat pumps are an alternative to gas for most people. What I am trying to say but you keep ignoring, is that people should actually look at the facts/get quotes before making up their minds based on hearsay or individuals woe stories, there are plenty of those on this forum for the ID3, but it is a great car and the majority of people seem to be pleased with it as a choice,.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

I saw the quotes for heat pumps when I was faced with the need to replace my old goosed boiler, I saw my cousin's fuel bills and servicing costs for the Panasonic unit he has.

The figures just don't add up right now for anyone with access to mains gas to not go and get another boiler.

It's pretty much analogous to the EV vs ICE car argument. Plenty of EV owners urging anyone living in a flat, can't get a home charger and usually spnd £5k on a 10 year old car to go and get an EV. If the convenience and low costs of home charging aren't accessible, I'd not encourage those people to get an EV until they are forced to.
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Post by Scratch »

Splitty wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:27 am You keep quoting your personal experiences, the £250 service cost is what your brother pays, most ASHP service costs are in the region of £120 per year which is less than I have had to pay for my oil boiler (£90) plus tanks etc (£85). An external oil boiler (Worcester Bosch) is bigger than an equivalent Heat pump (Mitsibushi Ecodan for example) and an Oil tank or LPG tank are about 4 -6 times the size of a heat pump

Taxes may not go up, who knows? Historically taxes have been used to change peoples behaviour. But subsidies will go away which currently make electricity a higher cost than gas and there will be more incentives (via taxes or grants) to get people to adopt alternatives to Gas/Oil.

And I am not suggesting heat pumps are an alternative to gas for most people. What I am trying to say but you keep ignoring, is that people should actually look at the facts/get quotes before making up their minds based on hearsay or individuals woe stories, there are plenty of those on this forum for the ID3, but it is a great car and the majority of people seem to be pleased with it as a choice,.
ASHP servicing costs. £120 per year? You obviously have no experience of Mitsubishi servicing costs, which are more than double that figure. There are organisations who will service your ASHP for £120 or less but how good are they and can they get the parts? What would you do in the event of a breakdown, which will inevitably happen at the weekend or bank holiday.
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

My Dad’s Mitsubishi ASHP’s servicing costs are about £250 year, to add more anecdata to the pile.

ASHP’s for him actually save him plenty £££ as previously the only source of heating was propane; there is zero prospect of mains gas due to rurality and propane is OMG expensive. But again, he is a very unusual case compared to your average house owner!
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